A-10 to be retired.

Meow, we gotta make sure that "naval campaign" is broadly interpreted lest the US starts losing air supremacy. :D
Here's the entire document. Few limits are actually placed on the Navy.
http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/utils/getfile/collection/p4013coll11/id/729/filename/730.pdf

It looks like the Navy gets a role in nation-building:
"To provide forces, as directed by proper authority for the establishment of military government, pending transfer of this responsibility to other authority."
 
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Why not the Marine Corps, they have a history of making handed down used and otherwise ill employed equipment viable, can the A 10 fold its wings? Doesn't it already have a hook?

Hate to see it go, it is like a turbine powered Skyraider, my favorite warbird. Love the A 10.

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Why not the Marine Corps, they have a history of making handed down used and otherwise ill employed equipment viable, can the A 10 fold its wings? Doesn't it already have a hook?
I know you're joking, but only half (maybe less these days) the carrier wings have a single Marine squadron. They're used to shore-based ops.
 
Why not the Marine Corps, they have a history of making handed down used and otherwise ill employed equipment viable, can the A 10 fold its wings? Doesn't it already have a hook?

No hook, no carrier capable. As Pilot Fighter said, even though most USMC ops are from land bases anymore, they always want carrier capable planes. And while though the D-model Hornet never goes to the carrier, it still retains the capability to. A-10 has neither. No surprise though.....the USMC could use the Apache too, but choose to stay with the Cobra.
 
No surprise though.....the USMC could use the Apache too, but choose to stay with the Cobra.

Mx costs for the Apache and modifications required to make them work at sea were the official reasons that the USMC didn't go with the AH-64.
 
No hook, no carrier capable. As Pilot Fighter said, even though most USMC ops are from land bases anymore, they always want carrier capable planes. And while though the D-model Hornet never goes to the carrier, it still retains the capability to. A-10 has neither. No surprise though.....the USMC could use the Apache too, but choose to stay with the Cobra.

They don't want the Apache. The A model was a start-up and initialization nightmare with all sorts of stray electrons. The D model Longbow fixed all that, and then they loaded it up with that targeting dome and reduced the useful load to near nothing. Apaches are crap.

A drill sergeant put it in my head the Army was getting A-10s in the late 90's. I all but soiled myself with joy. Alas, had it happened, I might've stayed in. It's a shame to see such a loved airframe go.
 
Mx costs for the Apache and modifications required to make them work at sea were the official reasons that the USMC didn't go with the AH-64.

That makes sense; which is good that they did look at the possibility.
 
Why not the Marine Corps, they have a history of making handed down used and otherwise ill employed equipment viable, can the A 10 fold its wings? Doesn't it already have a hook?

Hate to see it go, it is like a turbine powered Skyraider, my favorite warbird. Love the A 10.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2


Marines on Carriers.png
 
There's a scene from Carrier on that subject. The Marine maintenance sergeant says something like, "Yeah, we've had a lot of TFOA problems, everyone hates us because we suck and our airplanes are old and busted."

(Things Falling Off Aircraft)

When I went through the Marine Hornet RAG, the biggest deal we had a lot of the time (other than jets crashing all the time) was TFOA. And ironically enough, there were multiple guys from that squadron (the "Devils" of VMFA-232) from the show in that squadron. My class advisor was a Capt featured a few times in it. After I left, they lost an entire Litening pod off a jet into the ocean
 
When I went through the Marine Hornet RAG, the biggest deal we had a lot of the time (other than jets crashing all the time) was TFOA. And ironically enough, there were multiple guys from that squadron (the "Devils" of VMFA-232) from the show in that squadron. My class advisor was a Capt featured a few times in it. After I left, they lost an entire Litening pod off a jet into the ocean
I rather liked the show, honestly. Makes me want to visit a carrier and see it all in action.
 
I rather liked the show, honestly. Makes me want to visit a carrier and see it all in action.

Aside from the audience pleasing drama from a few characters, I thought it was pretty well done honestly. It did a lot more towards explaining life to my mrs than any of my stories.
 
It's a crap premise. The A10 does what frankly no other platform in the AO's can do at this moment, and frankly never will at the rate it's going which is EFFECTIVE CAS. Yes, the B1 can do supersonic passes all day, but you know what keeps the bad guys heads down better than a sonic boom? Having it shot off with a 30MM cannon. I've personally seen A10 CAS and it's unparalleled. It, however, goes deeper than the gun on the plane. It goes to the mindset of the crew members. Torch jockey's are very good at what they do, but, unfortunately I've seen CAS demonstrated by them as an after thought. I know there are fighter guy's here that will, rightfully, argue the point all day long, but most of my adult life having been spent on the bottom side of the equation, A10's just take it more personally. Period. The difference as best I can tell its that first hog drivers know they're going to make it home in that flying tumor, and second it's all they do. The airframe provides them the capabilities to shoot move and communicate for an asymmetrical length of time. Turning the A10 into a drone?? Single stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. The cost associated with it is ass backwards from why they want to get rid of it in the first place. Fact of the matter is so long as the infantry has boots on the ground pilots will ALWAYS be willing to pull us out of the suck, regardless of circumstances. There's no better platform to do that than the A10...
 
It's a crap premise. The A10 does what frankly no other platform in the AO's can do at this moment, and frankly never will at the rate it's going which is EFFECTIVE CAS. Yes, the B1 can do supersonic passes all day, but you know what keeps the bad guys heads down better than a sonic boom? Having it shot off with a 30MM cannon. I've personally seen A10 CAS and it's unparalleled. It, however, goes deeper than the gun on the plane. It goes to the mindset of the crew members. Torch jockey's are very good at what they do, but, unfortunately I've seen CAS demonstrated by them as an after thought. I know there are fighter guy's here that will, rightfully, argue the point all day long, but most of my adult life having been spent on the bottom side of the equation, A10's just take it more personally. Period. The difference as best I can tell its that first hog drivers know they're going to make it home in that flying tumor, and second it's all they do. The airframe provides them the capabilities to shoot move and communicate for an asymmetrical length of time. Turning the A10 into a drone?? Single stupidest thing I've heard in a long time. The cost associated with it is ass backwards from why they want to get rid of it in the first place. Fact of the matter is so long as the infantry has boots on the ground pilots will ALWAYS be willing to pull us out of the suck, regardless of circumstances. There's no better platform to do that than the A10...

While I agree with the balance of your argument, unfortunately time and age aren't on the A-10s side. I still think that the Army should be legally able to acquire them from the AF, and however they do that (with a corresponding change of law by Congress) and how they fund it, is up to them. AF can wash its hands of the whole mission that they don't truly like anyway.

Still, not every war is going to be an Afghanistan or an Iraq; ie- fairly permissive IADS environments, with the biggest threats being medium automatic weapons and MANPADs; no enemy air threat to speak of, and no large SAM or guided/large AAA threats. Even in OIF in the initial push, we lost a Hog to a Roland SAM, and that was still fairly permissive by the time troops were rolling north to Baghdad. In a full-on fight, the Hog is going to have a tough go of it. In the Fulda Gap days, the survivability rate for an A-10 pilot was thought to be something in the arena of 3 missions. So while the A-10 is a very capable platform, it really hasn't been tested in a full-up threat arena apart from Desert Storm, which was a fairly one-sided affair, and that was 23 years ago, with many IADS improvements since then.

On the flip side, I also agree that the AF has been wanting to kill the A-10 for a long time now, as has been proven since 1990 when they began closing units for the A-16. The jet has never really fit into the AFs desire for the latest and greatest high tech world. Another reason the Army should take them as well as the CAS mission set.
 
I couldn't agree more: the army SHOULD take them if left in the boneyard, it's just a whole other left of REMFs that would take an already existing effective program, scrap it, and rebuild it from the ground up for what would be little more than a shuffle of paperwork so the AF could get another shiny "jeeeeeeeet." I also agree that they're not indestructible, but you fly the airframe appropriate to the mission. Akin to not bringing a knife to a gun fight, you don't bring an A10 to an AOR saturated with MANPADS, and SAM's. That said when we get into a sticky situation on the ground, the roar of the GAU-8 the cure for what ails you. I'm not advocating using it blindly, I am however saying it does WELL what many others simply aren't built to do in the "all around" attack modes.

As for age, well you're not wrong, but the B52's are still kicking for one simple fact...IF IT AINT BROKE DON"T FIX IT. It's a cost effective work horse filling a niche, and doing it with gusto. The AF fighter mafia has been around forever and the A10 has always been the bastard step child of the force, but it still works, and it still works well. It seems a viable compromise to free up a whiz bang super cruise blah blah blah to do their primary missions, and keep the airborne artillery watching over us on the ground where it belongs
 
I couldn't agree more: the army SHOULD take them if left in the boneyard, it's just a whole other left of REMFs that would take an already existing effective program, scrap it, and rebuild it from the ground up for what would be little more than a shuffle of paperwork so the AF could get another shiny "jeeeeeeeet." I also agree that they're not indestructible, but you fly the airframe appropriate to the mission. Akin to not bringing a knife to a gun fight, you don't bring an A10 to an AOR saturated with MANPADS, and SAM's. That said when we get into a sticky situation on the ground, the roar of the GAU-8 the cure for what ails you. I'm not advocating using it blindly, I am however saying it does WELL what many others simply aren't built to do in the "all around" attack modes.

Agree. In the Fulda Gap days, the heavy IADS was exactly where the A-10 was going to go in order to kill tanks and other armor.....armor supported by Air Defense Artillery travelling with them such as ZSUs, SA-13s, etc. So even back then, the A-10 was going to be in the middle of it, hence the low rate of total missions for the individual pilot. Since then, we've operated pretty permissively, and have done it well. I just believe that even though individual A-10 pilots see the value and importance of the CAS mission as more than just dropping a bomb on a set of coordinates that some ground troop called in; Big Blue will still never be convinced. Hence why the Army needs to take over responsibility for covering/supporting their own troops on the ground, like the USMC does, and be given the tools to do so, that being the A-10. How they then make that happen (or fail to), will be their responsibility, and not the USAFs.

As for age, well you're not wrong, but the B52's are still kicking for one simple fact...IF IT AINT BROKE DON"T FIX IT. It's a cost effective work horse filling a niche, and doing it with gusto. The AF fighter mafia has been around forever and the A10 has always been the bastard step child of the force, but it still works, and it still works well. It seems a viable compromise to free up a whiz bang super cruise blah blah blah to do their primary missions, and keep the airborne artillery watching over us on the ground where it belongs

The one thing the B-52 has going for it though, is that although the newest H-model -52 is a 1961 model, the airframes aren't truly that old. Unlike the tired D and G model B-52s, which came home tired and beat up from Vietnam and Desert Storm (for the Gs), the H-model B-52s that are currently all we have, spent the balance of their lives during those times sitting nuclear alert at CONUS bases, never having served in those conflicts. D's were retired in 1984, and G's in 1994, both very tired from their work; while Hs only started getting active in the late 1990s versus sitting their alert. So the jets aren't truly that old, even though their actual age is.

A-10s however, have been getting worked to death practically. The Hog Up wing modifications have helped, but the overall airframes are fairly tired just from utilization rate, with the newest A-10 being 1982, and the oldest being 1978 (the '75-'77 models were retired just after Desert Storm). Barring more airframe mods of some kind, which there is no money for anyway, the $$$ will be costly to keep it going [truly, another reason to give them to the Army....make it their problem, fiscally speaking :) ]
 
Personally, if the AF wasn't so territorial on the Army getting more fixed wing assets I think that those COIN-type light attack turboprop aircraft like the Super Tucano or that Air Tractor with a bunch of bombs on it would be ideal for the Army to have -- and it would be pretty cheap own and operate as well. Just a lay-person's opinion, YMMV. Maybe @MikeD or the other military folks have an opinion on that, but it seems like the AF is just addicted to having jets even when they're not necessary for the mission.
 
There is no single aircraft that is so important, so singularly effective at its job, that it is uniquely critical to the success of the US military or USAF mission. Most times in this post-Vietnam, post-Desert Storem era when a military aircraft is slated for retirement, there is a chorus of voices claiming that this one aircraft is just that important, and the airframe slated to replace it in that role will never be as good. You name it....Phantom....Tomcat.....EF-111.....advocates of all of them foretold doom if they were allowed to be retired.

As @hook_dupin said earlier, the key to USAF success is the highly trained and motivated people who perform the mission, not necessarily the equipment they are using to execute it. When the last Hog is being chopped up at AMARG, the USAF will still be out there providing CAS and keeping joes alive, and will continue to do so long afterward.

The larger "roles and missions" discussion is a much tougher nut to crack. It isn't about territory, necessarily, but doctrinal responsibility of who owns what air assets and where they are being used. I don't think there's anything that will be gained in terms of mission effectiveness by giving the CAS mission to the Army wholesale, other than assuaging Army teeth-gnashing about another service being responsible for their overhead fire support. Let's also remember that, outside of the rotary wing aspects, (unlike the Marines) the Army has zero corporate knowledge/understanding of how air assets fit into the air battle. The few Army fixed wing assets I've worked with -- mostly Guardrail and ODIN -- were as lost in the air picture as I would be trying to find my stateroom on an aircraft carrier. Simply giving the Army a capable fixed wing CAS platform like the Hog may "solve" some acute issues that the Army has with another service providing fixed wing CAS, but it also creates a whole new list of problems for everyone else managing the battlespace above the ground that those new ArmyHogs would be operating in, especially in a denied/non-permissive environment. It would simply be trading one problem for another problem.

Personally, I'm not really an advocate for either side of the argument because there are clearly shortfalls and problems in both scenarios. From my perspective, given the amount of time and pain required to switch horses compared to the benefits reaped, I don't see a serious argument for changing the roles.
 
Sucks. One of my favorite airplanes, and one of the very few military aircraft I actually get excited to still see. Growing up in Western Ma, and eventually working at BAF, I used to love hearing that distinct whine, and watching them operate everyday. When the airport switched to F15s, it seemed like everyone but myself was excited.

Couple shots from a few years ago. What an awesome airplane!
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