Controller question on Pop-up IFR

kevmor99

kevmor99

Well-Known Member
I rent occasionally out of an uncontrolled airport and to get my IFR clearance I have to call the number and obtain a void time. Sometimes when I call (even the local approach direct phone number) they have me wait a couple minutes and talk to another controller to get the clearance. At our field it's expected to taxi to the runway and tell them you're ready to depart immediately, but I can't hear with the engine running so I shut down. This leads to having to do a run-up within that immediate departure with a few minutes to get airborn.

If it's clear enough to depart VFR, does ATC care if I file the flight plan on the ground and get the clearance while headed to my destination? Is it any more or less workload for the controller doing it in the air vs. over the phone?
 
As a center controller its 10x easier for me to clear a vfr to ifr than it is to clear on the ground.

Look at it this way, if you call up vfr looking for ifr. I will be done with you within 15-30 seconds. If I clear you off the ground I have to block airspace for 15+ minutes. Then what if you don't get off or are late. Possibly more work.



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Not to mention the time off freq on a gco or with flight service.

Hope that helps.

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As @BWER said, it's much easier for us if you depart VFR and pick up your clearance in the air. If you can't do that due to weather and you don't want to rush your takeoff, try asking for a release window of [five (or more) minutes from now] to [ten minutes from now].
 
If you're in a flat state, there's a good chance you might be able to get center on the ground. Baring that, there's probably an RCO nearby you can use to call flight service so you don't have to use your phone. If I do need to use my phone in the airplane I tether it to my headset with the bluetooth, which makes it easy to hear and talk.
Also, you don't really need to do a runup after every time you shut your engine down. This is all of course if you NEED to get the clearance on the ground. I think everyone, including pilots prefers to pick it up in the air if departing from an uncontrolled.
 
You don't need to do a run-up after every shutdown, unless there is something to make you suspect the engine will no long make power. I often do 20 shutdowns a day/ I am not doing 20 runups.

Only reason I would call for a clearance on the ground is if I think I wouldn't be able to stay VFR once off.
 
i would not even think about departing VFR looking for an IFR in MVFR conditions, remember the controller is under no obligation to give you a clrn if the controller is too busy. our first priority is to IFR traffic IN the system not VFR aircraft trying to get IFR into it.
 
kevmor99 said:
I rent occasionally out of an uncontrolled airport and to get my IFR clearance I have to call the number and obtain a void time. Sometimes when I call (even the local approach direct phone number) they have me wait a couple minutes and talk to another controller to get the clearance. At our field it's expected to taxi to the runway and tell them you're ready to depart immediately, but I can't hear with the engine running so I shut down. This leads to having to do a run-up within that immediate departure with a few minutes to get airborn.

If it's clear enough to depart VFR, does ATC care if I file the flight plan on the ground and get the clearance while headed to my destination? Is it any more or less workload for the controller doing it in the air vs. over the phone?
Click to expand...

I work approach control. It's easier for us to issue a clearance in the air assuming several variables. It's easier when it was filed for a time within 30 minutes of your departure (so we actually have the flight strip in front of us and don't have to send our data person to retrieve it). It's easier as long as there is no flow restriction to the destination airport (En Route Spacing, Ground Delay, Ground Stop, etc). It's easier as long as we control the airport you filed from and you're in our airspace. It's easier when the routing and altitude are already good and we don't have to first make a few amendments (this, again, requires calling or yelling at our Data controller to change things in the flight data computer, which they may or may not be very good at doing). These are all things we absolutely should be able to accommodate, but it may result in a delay in issuing your clearance.

That said, all of those variables can make issuing a clearance difficult in the air, especially if there's quite a bit of traffic. It's possible you'll be delayed in receiving your clearance. Calling from the ground is the best way to ensure everything is coordinated and ready to go before you ever get into the air, plus we'll block other IFR traffic for you.

If you're calling on a phone to get in touch with ATC (no RCO available) then you could tell them that you're unable to call back after taxi and see if they'll give you a larger release window. Depending on the volume of IFR traffic in that area, that may or may not be possible but it's worth trying. Where I work we are usually able to issue 10 minute void times for our satellite airports which should give the pilots enough time to taxi out and depart. At airports where there might be more traffic, we have RCOs available so the pilots are able to call us on frequency when holding short of the runway, so it's not as big a deal then.

All this stuff I mentioned about obtaining the flight plan data, making amendments, etc, are more time consuming in the approach control environment in many cases. It's my understanding that Centers are able to make these changes much more quickly and perhaps it's more often preferable for them to handle your clearance after you're airborne.
 
queeno said:
i would not even think about departing VFR looking for an IFR in MVFR conditions, remember the controller is under no obligation to give you a clrn if the controller is too busy. our first priority is to IFR traffic IN the system not VFR aircraft trying to get IFR into it.
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I can always land if it doesn't work out, but generally if I expect needing the clearance within 10 minutes of departure, I'll get it on the ground.
 
That pick it up in the air stuff doesn't work too good around here if you didn't file the correct route, and got the clearance on the ground prior to departing.
 
N90-EWR said:
That pick it up in the air stuff doesn't work too good around here if you didn't file the correct route, and got the clearance on the ground prior to departing.
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Uh, then you'd already be IFR, and you should also have the amended clearance... since you were given the clearance.
 
z987k said:
Uh, then you'd already be IFR, and you should also have the amended clearance... since you were given the clearance.
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What I meant is that somebody read him the correct route, and he departs VFR to activate the IFR in the air, as opposed to having no IFR flight plan on file, or one with an incorrect route, and try to get the controller in the air to file one, or fix the incorrect route, then read him the whole thing.
 
What verbiage do you guys use when the pilot calls up after having that information? Do you still go through the whole clearance with route amendments and whatnot?
 
FM_Weasel said:
What verbiage do you guys use when the pilot calls up after having that information? Do you still go through the whole clearance with route amendments and whatnot?
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No...if the pilot got his clearance on the ground, and departs VFR to pick it up in the air, after radar identifying him, we just tell them "consider yourself IFR at this time, climb and maintain xxxx, proceed direct xyz, resume own navigation" etc. No need to read him the whole route since he already got that on the ground.
 
Sort of a plain language thing? I was reading the section on VFR release of IFR departures:

4−3−9. VFR RELEASE OF IFR DEPARTURE

When an aircraft which has filed an IFR flight plan
requests a VFR departure through a terminal facility,
FSS, or air/ground communications station:

a. After obtaining, if necessary, approval from the
facility/sector responsible for issuing the IFR
clearance, you may authorize an IFR flight planned
aircraft to depart VFR. Inform the pilot of the proper
frequency and, if appropriate, where or when to
contact the facility responsible for issuing the
clearance.

PHRASEOLOGY−

VFR DEPARTURE AUTHORIZED. CONTACT (facility)
ON (frequency) AT (location or time if required) FOR
CLEARANCE.
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And it makes it sound like the clearance is actually issued in the air, so I'm wondering what the data/flight service person tells them on the ground. Do they get the clearance on the ground then "hold for release" followed by the above phraseology? After departing the transmission to actually make them IFR is just plain language since the .65 doesn't tell you what to say after they depart?
 
FM_Weasel said:
Sort of a plain language thing? I was reading the section on VFR release of IFR departures:



And it makes it sound like the clearance is actually issued in the air, so I'm wondering what the data/flight service person tells them on the ground. Do they get the clearance on the ground then "hold for release" followed by the above phraseology? After departing the transmission to actually make them IFR is just plain language since the .65 doesn't tell you what to say after they depart?
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Yes, on the ground flight data gives them the clearance then "hold for release". After departing VFR the transmission we use to make them IFR is just plain language "consider yourself IFR at this time, (insert assigned altitude and heading here)". You're correct that is not covered in the .65, which is why that is sort of an improvised phraseology we've used for quite a long time.
 
SoCal Approach (busiest in the world) does this best. You simply call approach control direct on an 800 number, follow the menu for your airport and you get the controller or the flight data guy. Nine out of ten times there is no delay.

I typically don't call for my clearance until I finish the run-up. When I read it back I say I can be airborne in 3 minutes and I almost always get a release.
 
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The problem with departing VFR in MVFR and getting/activating a clearance after you're airborne is if you can't get to the MVA/MEA the controller should deny you.

There are a couple of scars on hillsides around Brown Field (KSDM) that prove this fact. Reba McEntire had to find a new band after one of those accidents.
 
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