Comm Break Down

brian434

brian434

Well-Known Member
So we departed an airport VFR the other day with an IFR plan waiting for us. When we requested the IFR (in the air) we were given routing that would lead us directly into storms. The clearance was not read back. Instead we requested direct x fix direct destination. The controller responds with climb and maintain 14k proceed direct x fix.

Where I got messed up was my very strong belief that I either need an EFC at that fix or a clearance such as "cleared direct x direct destination (or other fixes). I didn't get either and was told to contact center for that information. Upon call up to center I made initial report and followed it up with "request." When he got time he asked me what the request was. I told him my clearance received was direct x fix without mention of being cleared to destination and I would like clarification and either needed an EFC time or a continuation beyond that point. That confused him more and things went to hell is a hand basket. We were then given the first clearance again with clearance for left and right deviations as needed along the entire route. We flew to x fix which was a big left deviation, and then rejoined the arrival procedure as cleared.

I guess the big question here is... what should I have done/said?
 
brian434 said:
So we departed an airport VFR the other day with an IFR plan waiting for us. When we requested the IFR (in the air) we were given routing that would lead us directly into storms. The clearance was not read back. Instead we requested direct x fix direct destination. The controller responds with climb and maintain 14k proceed direct x fix.

Where I got messed up was my very strong belief that I either need an EFC at that fix or a clearance such as "cleared direct x direct destination (or other fixes). I didn't get either and was told to contact center for that information. Upon call up to center I made initial report and followed it up with "request." When he got time he asked me what the request was. I told him my clearance received was direct x fix without mention of being cleared to destination and I would like clarification and either needed an EFC time or a continuation beyond that point. That confused him more and things went to hell is a hand basket. We were then given the first clearance again with clearance for left and right deviations as needed along the entire route. We flew to x fix which was a big left deviation, and then rejoined the arrival procedure as cleared.

I guess the big question here is... what should I have done/said?
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Who did you get the initial clearance from? FSS? If that is the case I would suggest calling center directly from the air. If the flight plan is on file, they should have it too. That would probably alleviate all this confusion. I would suggest giving a readback on the clearance, even if it wasn't your request, or saying unable, which will remove any ambiguity on the routing portion. If the fix you requested direct to was on the full route clearance you received, the controller may have misunderstood your meaning. Also, don't ever by afraid to ask for clarity if there is ever a question in your mind.
 
Was the fix you requested already on your flight plan? If it was then clearing you direct to x would take care of it. Now, if it something that is not on your flight plan then I agree with you that you should have been given instructions after that. Having said that, clearing to a fix versus clearing you direct are two different things. If I clear you to a fix then that would technically end your clearance at the fix but I wouldn't ever do that without elaborating because I can understand why people would be confused.

If you're confused, though then ask. There is nothing worse than just doing what you think the clearance is. If you have to, just use plain English..."After X, am I cleared direct XYZ?"
 
Here in Canuckistan, and indeed most of the Western world that are falling in line with ICAO standards.

Clearance like this:

"ABC123 cleared direct FIXXA"

Means that FIXXA is now your clearance limit.

The ICAO Phraseology, for the present time anyway is

"ABC123 cleared direct FIXXA rest of route unchanged"

Without that bolded part, by the letter of the law (ICAO Anyway) you should hold at FIXXA.

HOWEVER, 99.9% of pilots would proceed to FIXXA and continue on their previous cleared routing, be that flight plan or an amended clearance.
 
So in Canada, even when a pilot is cleared to the destination airport via the entire routing (assuming you guys do that), then subsequently saying "Cleared direct (fix along that routing)" amends the aircraft's clearance limit to that fix? That is indeed much different than how we do it in the US.
 
Is the pilot in fact cleared if he never reads back said clearance? Who's to say it was ever received?
 
Read back the clearance even if there is no way possible to be flown safely as received? Not sure I'm buying that.

A different route was filed.

Our company has a zero tolerance policy for scaring clients. Pilots job hunt when they penetrate instead of deviating.
 
brian434 said:
Read back the clearance even if there is no way possible to be flown safely as received? Not sure I'm buying that.

A different route was filed.

Our company has a zero tolerance policy for scaring clients. Pilots job hunt when they penetrate instead of deviating.
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Ya, if it's that busy just read it back and ask for a deviation. Remember YOU are the PIC. There's no reason that because you're on an IFR clearance you HAVE to go busting through T-storms because you're routing happens to go through them. Just get a deviation, or if it's that busy and you're that close to them, just go around anyway. Again, you're the PIC not the controller.
 
z987k said:
Ya, if it's that busy just read it back and ask for a deviation. Remember YOU are the PIC. There's no reason that because you're on an IFR clearance you HAVE to go busting through T-storms because you're routing happens to go through them. Just get a deviation, or if it's that busy and you're that close to them, just go around anyway. Again, you're the PIC not the controller.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again...you're the PIC but don't just go do whatever it is you feel you want to do. If you can't wait 1 minute for deviations then you waited too long to begin with. Just go around anyway when it's really busy? That is the absolute worst time to just go ahead and do whatever you feel like doing. When we're busy, we're busy for a reason and it's not because there isn't any traffic around you. Just remember, if you get together with someone...someone will have had a deal and it won't be the controller's fault. I hope you have a better excuse when they ask you about your deviation besides, "Well, I asked for it and the controller didn't respond within 5 seconds and during that 5 seconds, my route of flight became too dangerous for me to stay on."
 
spades9048 said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again...you're the PIC but don't just go do whatever it is you feel you want to do. If you can't wait 1 minute for deviations then you waited too long to begin with. Just go around anyway when it's really busy? That is the absolute worst time to just go ahead and do whatever you feel like doing. When we're busy, we're busy for a reason and it's not because there isn't any traffic around you. Just remember, if you get together with someone...someone will have had a deal and it won't be the controller's fault. I hope you have a better excuse when they ask you about your deviation besides, "Well, I asked for it and the controller didn't respond within 5 seconds and during that 5 seconds, my route of flight became too dangerous for me to stay on."
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Well yes, if you did wait that long, then it's on you but it's probably better to do about anything than punch through a level 5. Unless your a freight dogg and have the skillz to do that. :D
 
z987k said:
Well yes, if you did wait that long, then it's on you but it's probably better to do about anything than punch through a level 5. Unless your a freight dogg and have the skillz to do that. :D
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If you have an opportunity to visit a facility then I would highly suggest you do that...especially on a day when there is weather. It can get absolutely crazy and it will give you a better idea as to what we do. Obviously, when one of you guys want to deviate all of you guys want to deviate and then we don't have routes locking you down so we become a lot more cautious. When we say, "standby" it's usually because there is traffic or because you're not even in our airspace yet which requires us to make phone calls. Sometimes, we won't even know whether or not there will be traffic for you if you are transitioning through stratums. For example, most centers, ultra high sectors are 350 and above with high sectors being 240-340. Well, let's say you are descending through FL370 to FL270 and you're at 365 and you request a deviation. The controller has to request control from the stratum you are in and since the guy you are talking to only controls up to 340, we don't have our filters set to even see traffic at 365. So, there might be a guy 5 miles off to your left in the same direction you want to deviate.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but I can't stand the PIC vs. controller arguments. They are all pointless and at the end of day, we all want the same thing -- for you to land safely so all us can go home happy.
 
brian434 said:
Read back the clearance even if there is no way possible to be flown safely as received? Not sure I'm buying that.
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You may not buy that but your way didn't quite work out did it. If you stuck to the process this thread wouldn't exist.


Our company has a zero tolerance policy for scaring clients. Pilots job hunt when they penetrate instead of deviating.
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Twas joking.
 
ATC's NEXRAD and on scope weather radar doesn't function the same way as airborne radar or your eyes. Our radar is prone to diminishing returns as the energy dissipates on a 360 degree sweep. Airborne radar (So I've been told in seminars, at 8 am, in Vegas) can penetrate deep, but lacks side to side "big picture" coverage. Side echos can be misleading as well. I probably missed some of the finer points, but the definite is we don't see the same thing the same way most of the time. Nobody wants to see you punch through severe unless you're in an MU-2 or crippled 206, when obviously you've got the OOTSK cred.

It sounds to me like multiple sectors were involved. In that case its either, so do I let them fly in into the jaws of the storm while I call several other controllers? Or do I spin them until coordination can be completed as the storm bears down on you (bear in mind every other sector is humping most likely). Or do I give you what you want to escape the danger and figure the next guy down range figures it out?

It could also be that the coordination was more than was explained to you in your clearance and Center essentially said, "Yeah last sector told me you'd be doing direct fix direct (which clearly you weren't told). I don't have time to argue semantics, but cleared as filed and do whatever you want to deviate." We'll never know really but you didn't do anything wrong.

Also, yeah if I give you a clearance and it isn't read back, I'm liable for it. As for your company policy, I've been given PIREPS of extreme turbulence twice. Both were within 10 minutes of each other in CAVU at 12,000 in a non mountainous area. First was a Lear second was a CL30. I hope your company isn't that unforgiving.
 
I think (total guesswork here) that IAP naming conventions have changed somewhat recently, and the verbiage would be used for older approaches that were only named "ILS RWY XX" but had localizer minima. Now, I'm having trouble finding any that aren't named "ILS or LOC RWY XX" so maybe it won't come up as much or at all anymore.
 
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