Power off 180's

J

jskibo

Done
I have my CSEL ride coming up Thursday and all my maneuvers seem to be fine but the power off 180s are still hit or miss.

I'm using a Mooney 20F for the ride, so I don't have the luxury of 172RG 40 degree flaps to drop like a rock.

First few attempts in practice carrying 120 on the downwind and throwing gear on base left me short, holding gear till established left way too much glide.

Yesterday's work was way better. I stabilized downwind at 100 (prop full, MP 15), waited 5-7 sec after power cut to roll base, kept nose up to bleed speed to 90, gear on final roll out and started brining in flaps, pitch up to hold off speed, but still had a lot of side slip down to 75ft. Finally retracted flaps about 10 ft above and before the marker and dropped quick. Hit the pavement 20ft after the marker. Not pretty but effective.

Every time I try and take the downwind a few feet further I seem to end up 200ft or more short.

Anyone use a mooney for their ride or have a better technique to share?
 
Never retract flaps to lose altitude like that.

My advice is configure early and turn for the runway immediately. The rest is all by eye and feel. You can extend your glide by feathering the prop, if you want to drop faster use some slip. Other than that I would not be messing with your configuration.
 
By configure early, I mean on the downwind. Turn for the runway right away, and man handle that plane and make it do what you want. +100/-0 on the landing.
 
jskibo said:
Finally retracted flaps about 10 ft above and before the marker and dropped quick. Hit the pavement 20ft after the marker. Not pretty but effective.
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Retracting flaps in the flare?? I was never taught that, and I wouldn't let any of my students do that. I bet depending who you get, you could fail a checkride on that...

As far as everything else, how are you judging your turn to base? Maybe if you drop gear on the base, plan to turn base sooner? Also remember you have a lot of other tricks up the sleeve. Flying faster than best glide or at best glide to effectively change your glide path. Slip to land, and of course flaps, gear, and prop.

I have zero complex experience with power off 180s, but these are all things to consider.
 
JustinS said:
Retracting flaps in the flare?? I was never taught that, and I wouldn't let any of my students do that. I bet depending who you get, you could fail a checkride on that...

As far as everything else, how are you judging your turn to base? Maybe if you drop gear on the base, plan to turn base sooner? Also remember you have a lot of other tricks up the sleeve. Flying faster than best glide or at best glide to effectively change your glide path. Slip to land, and of course flaps, gear, and prop.

I have zero complex experience with power off 180s, but these are all things to consider.
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On the flaps, yes, in the flare about 5ft up. A couple knots fast on the mooney seems to add 200ft to the glide. At 5ft in the flare, if she's carrying, pulling the lever on the hydraulic flaps settles it and sticks it.

Right now I have slightly too much glide with a 6-8kt headwind, but that's a slightly better problem than too little. I find that 800 feet (200AGL) and 90kts over the threshold is about perfect for the short field landing, so I have been trying to judge it by that. If I'm fast or high, I slip it.

I have been at full prop, so I could fly the downwind @20 then add prop if I needed the drag I guess. The mooney flaps are pretty useless..

All my normal landings in the Mooney are zero flap, 80kt
 
Do it however it works for you but it sounds like too many config changes throughout the maneuver to me. I drop the gear right away on down wind and establish a normal approach speed, use flaps as needed to fly a steeper arcing approach all the way to short final, adjust the arc as needed. Visualize the glide path all the way from the target to your plane and fly angles. I find it's easier to fly power off 180's with a steeper dirty approach than a longer drawn out approach.

Also, flatten the prop early for the drag to keep it steep... that's something you can pull out if you feel like you're coming out short... kind of a brake release.
 
rframe said:
Do it however it works for you but it sounds like too many config changes throughout the maneuver to me. I drop the gear right away on down wind and establish a normal approach speed, use flaps as needed to fly a steeper arcing approach all the way to short final, adjust the arc as needed. Visualize the glide path all the way from the target to your plane and fly angles. I find it's easier to fly power off 180's with a steeper dirty approach than a longer drawn out approach.
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Totally agree. Turn straight for the numbers immediately - don't even consider extending the downwind. Don't make configuration changes. Drop the gear ASAP, set flaps as appropriate. When you are sure you have the field made, slip as necessary to hit the touchdown point you want. A faster than best glide approach speed is best, say 1.5 Vso plus the slip. If you get low, you've got speed to bleed off, and you can take the slip out.
 
jskibo said:
On the flaps, yes, in the flare about 5ft up. A couple knots fast on the mooney seems to add 200ft to the glide. At 5ft in the flare, if she's carrying, pulling the lever on the hydraulic flaps settles it and sticks it.

Right now I have slightly too much glide with a 6-8kt headwind, but that's a slightly better problem than too little. I find that 800 feet (200AGL) and 90kts over the threshold is about perfect for the short field landing, so I have been trying to judge it by that. If I'm fast or high, I slip it.

I have been at full prop, so I could fly the downwind @20 then add prop if I needed the drag I guess. The mooney flaps are pretty useless..

All my normal landings in the Mooney are zero flap, 80kt
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Raising flaps in the flare because you are a few knots fast is not a solution to the problem. Yet, the solution is in the problem; you are flying final too fast. Don't touch the flaps till you are on the go or past the dashed lines.

I would concentrate on flying hard numbers on final, an 20F so I would guess 90 on final, cross the threshold at 80? That is assuming normal, so power out, best glide established, runway made, double check configuration, and fly your final approach speed. Check your trim settings as well, and trim for 80, but fly it at 85. That will help "stick it", just pay attention to the wind you face that day...not a highly recommended practice either. The added benefit is that your eyes are outside constantly making a high low judgement, which they should be. Another point to add is the slip, purposely stay uncoordinated, that is still coordinated flight in my opinion. Healthy, medium bank angles translated don't be afraid to fly it down low. In a Mooney you can even over do it a bit as it is a very nimble aircraft. However, watch the radius of your turn (remember those charts during the written?) that you don't turn too tight or lose the airspeed (a slight added benefit to the trim technique). Thus the reason I don't immediately turn in a power off 180. I will check current configuration, trim, and run a restart flow through my head. I correct for wind with bank angle in a complex airplane, and anticipate in a relatively steady wind.

Have you tried picking your landing point in the middle of a longer runway and seeing what result is of flaring further in front of the point?

Edit: Can you fly the F slower than 80? 75? An F is more "slippery" than the C I have flown...
 
Taught a guy his commercial years ago in the mooney, and I am struggling to remember but I think we used one or two pumps of flaps to extended the range if need be. Other wise it was a no flap landing.
Try it once, nothing to lose.
 
jskibo said:
First few attempts in practice carrying 120 on the downwind and throwing gear on base left me short, holding gear till established left way too much glide.
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More forward slip?

Carry extra altitude and get rid of it when YOU want to.

Just be mindful when recovering from the slip (provided you are not recovering late or with excessive sink rate) that you pitch to your landing attitude. The most common mistakes with slips I see over and over again, from private to CFI is that the pilot relieves the back pressure (points the nose down) when recovering. This alway results in excessive float.

Slip recovery: Step through with opposite rudder while leveling the wings, hold the attitude.
 
TwoTwoLeft said:
More forward slip?

Carry extra altitude and get rid of it when YOU want to.

Just be mindful when recovering from the slip (provided you are not recovering late or with excessive sink rate) that you pitch to your landing attitude. The most common mistakes with slips I see over and over again, from private to CFI is that the pilot relieves the back pressure (points the nose down) when recovering. This alway results in excessive float.

Slip recovery: Step through with opposite rudder while leveling the wings, hold the attitude.
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Bolded for good point, italics for an excellent point. You can feel that float immediately at altitude, so the natural tendency to pitch down. By flying the attitude, and I'll go out on a limb to say acoustically as well, you are already established on your desired airspeed. Also related to vestibular disorientation I believe when coming out of a slip to a more stabilized, normal flight regime....alas, relying on attitude and sight picture.

That is post of the year on flying the airplane TwoTwo, thank you.
 
We can talk about different techniques until we are blue in the face. Here is what I think is important.

1. Screwing with configuration too much can easily end in a gear up landing. I am very big on configuring on the downwind and 3 gumps before landing. That is just me, and having had a DPE screw my student up on this very point, I will drive it home further.

2. If you have not "explored" the capabilities of your aircraft, you have no idea what you really can and cannot do. This was something else that I was big on. Operating the airplane on the edges of the envelope with students allows them to get a good idea of what the airplane is REALLY capable of. This is not something that many students get to do,

3. With some experience you will learn to start "man handling" these smaller aircraft and make them do what you want and be less tentative with time. I can tell you that I do this particular maneuver with all my private students and require the same precision. How do expect to ever glide and land safely should you lose an engine otherwise?

4. Agree 100% with maintaining a certain attitude. This is best accomplished with trim. In fact pattern work using only trim and rudder is good a good exercise. Also good to know when your elevator cable and aileron cable snaps.


Not all hours of experience are equal. You should always know what both you and your plane is capable of. The whole point of the commercial maneuvers is showing "mastery" of the aircraft. Fly it like a master.
 
everyone has a valid point here, but you are too close to the checkride to try new technique. If your instructor is experienced with the DPE that you'll fly with, then he'll know what the guy likes to see and doesn't like to see. Right now, I'd perfect whatever your instructor tells you to do. Make sure you understand the risk of the techniques. If you try something new now, you'll almost guarantee yourself a failure.
 
launchpad said:
everyone has a valid point here, but you are too close to the checkride to try new technique. If your instructor is experienced with the DPE that you'll fly with, then he'll know what the guy likes to see and doesn't like to see. Right now, I'd perfect whatever your instructor tells you to do. Make sure you understand the risk of the techniques. If you try something new now, you'll almost guarantee yourself a failure.
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I see your point in saying this, and to some point I agree. However, this is no way to advance through ratings. It is somewhat worisome to hear "what the DPE likes to see and what he does not." You then are training to get by with one particular DPE, rather than mastering the skills essential to successfully pass a ride with any examiner and go on to possibly teach these maneuvers, or use them if the situation requires. Some times you have to break everything down again and reaffirm the basics and unless the OP is on a specific timeline, I would advise on doing that. Many of the techniques mentioned wouldn't take more than a few tries to get a feel for. One last mention being to not make it tech-cedure, and use them on every try. A power off 180 is an eyes outside maneuver, so if you are too high and need to correct, one might slip the airplane to do so with probably a quick few glances at the ASI, all while making the high or low judgement.
 
n57flyguy said:
Raising flaps in the flare because you are a few knots fast is not a solution to the problem. Yet, the solution is in the problem; you are flying final too fast. Don't touch the flaps till you are on the go or past the dashed lines.

I would concentrate on flying hard numbers on final, an 20F so I would guess 90 on final, cross the threshold at 80? That is assuming normal, so power out, best glide established, runway made, double check configuration, and fly your final approach speed. Check your trim settings as well, and trim for 80, but fly it at 85. That will help "stick it", just pay attention to the wind you face that day...not a highly recommended practice either. The added benefit is that your eyes are outside constantly making a high low judgement, which they should be. Another point to add is the slip, purposely stay uncoordinated, that is still coordinated flight in my opinion. Healthy, medium bank angles translated don't be afraid to fly it down low. In a Mooney you can even over do it a bit as it is a very nimble aircraft. However, watch the radius of your turn (remember those charts during the written?) that you don't turn too tight or lose the airspeed (a slight added benefit to the trim technique). Thus the reason I don't immediately turn in a power off 180. I will check current configuration, trim, and run a restart flow through my head. I correct for wind with bank angle in a complex airplane, and anticipate in a relatively steady wind.

Have you tried picking your landing point in the middle of a longer runway and seeing what result is of flaring further in front of the point?

Edit: Can you fly the F slower than 80? 75? An F is more "slippery" than the C I have flown...
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Seems to stall out just under 80 in a no flaps landing...

Usually fly it 100 on final, 90 over threshold and 80 for the flare.

In a good slip it drops 800fpm easy. It's that little bit of float, even holding that flare down to 50ft, that is making the difference between passable and not right now
 
A trick from how I teach short fields: When you're on final, don't focus on where you want to land. If you did an absolutely perfect and linear approach but didn't flare at all, where would you smack into the ground? That's where you want to focus. A perfect approach is going to have a flare, and therefore a certain amount of float. That float distance is how far short of your intended landing point you should focus. Remember that distance changes with speed, so keep that in mind.
 
I just have to get that speed and alt out a bit quicker. Will try slipping it down a little earlier tomorrow and seeing what the picture looks like, suppose I can always add flaps in the ground effect if I need a few more feet.

Mooney just seems harder to dump speed in than other things I have flown. It seems slipperier....
 
jskibo said:
Seems to stall out just under 80 in a no flaps landing...

Usually fly it 100 on final, 90 over threshold and 80 for the flare.

In a good slip it drops 800fpm easy. It's that little bit of float, even holding that flare down to 50ft, that is making the difference between passable and not right now
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Gotcha I beleive after the underpowered D and the E fix...the F was the first to really smooth out some of the more parasitic drag components. That being said, it is a slippery airplane and characteristic of Mooney's "flattish" landing flare.

800FPM...great, but does that number matter? You won't usually be doing a mile per distance calculation based on GS. Glide ratio would be more of a factor, but you are already doing that in your head, realizing it or not. Keep in mind a slip is a tool, and can be implimented and adapted as required as a medium to correct altitude.

So trouble in the intial flare. Because of the airplanes nature, use it to your advantage instead of treating it as a hindrance. In a safe manner by your determination, would getting the aircraft lower to use the glide at 90 knots...even 85 knots allowing to bleed off the excess airspeed work? Or a down wind leg extension with a slight bank towards the runway to start planning your descent and configuration inputs?

I bring this up because obviously the start of the manuver determines the finish. Because you have to fly a hard number over the threshold into the flare, a possibilty might be to start reducing that number with pitch ealier. That might allow the drag of a higher AOA reduce the cut a Mooney's wing has through ground effect, I suppose you can say "mushing" it in. Double check your trim to. A Mooney is not a plane you want to yoke pump either, nore over flare. A smooth, slower, mushy flare might help.
 
n57flyguy said:
Gotcha I beleive after the underpowered D and the E fix...the F was the first to really smooth out some of the more parasitic drag components. That being said, it is a slippery airplane and characteristic of Mooney's "flattish" landing flare.

800FPM...great, but does that number matter? You won't usually be doing a mile per distance calculation based on GS. Glide ratio would be more of a factor, but you are already doing that in your head, realizing it or not. Keep in mind a slip is a tool, and can be implimented and adapted as required as a medium to correct altitude.

So trouble in the intial flare. Because of the airplanes nature, use it to your advantage instead of treating it as a hindrance. In a safe manner by your determination, would getting the aircraft lower to use the glide at 90 knots...even 85 knots allowing to bleed off the excess airspeed work? Or a down wind leg extension with a slight bank towards the runway to start planning your descent and configuration inputs?

I bring this up because obviously the start of the manuver determines the finish. Because you have to fly a hard number over the threshold into the flare, a possibilty might be to start reducing that number with pitch ealier. That might allow the drag of a higher AOA reduce the cut a Mooney's wing has through ground effect, I suppose you can say "mushing" it in. Double check your trim to. A Mooney is not a plane you want to yoke pump either, nore over flare. A smooth, slower, mushy flare might help.
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Will play with it a bit tomorrow...

I'm all over the trim from downwind through final. Trying to keep it set for whatever airspeed I'm looking for. There's a whole lot less yoke movement to play with in the mooney, not to mention that last bit of aft travel is almost a slight upward pull in the flare.

Trim works great for the steep turns. Add a wheel and a half before the bank and just roll it over and sit back. It holds altitude perfectly. Pull it back out on roll out.

We have a couple sand jugs some of the folks have used in the aft compartment to make the flares easier, but I didn't want to add them into the mix at this point. I have about 70 hours in this plane ver the last year, so I'm used to a certain feel. The wing leveler was broke for the past year, but now that its fixed it almost works too well sometimes.....what's worse is the cutoff switch is not working :).

I do appreciate all the input so far!
 
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