Flyguy, if you don't mind me asking, where did you find this information or from where are you surmising it?
ATP Final Rule Signed
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Flyguy, if you don't mind me asking, where did you find this information or from where are you surmising it?
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but the check ride isn't the important part. The problem with 61 is that it can be great, or it can be terrible. It's all up to the instructor. At least part 141 has FSDO oversight (in theory).
Most people can get through a check ride, but the check just scratches the surface of what you should know.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Ha ha ha! And some schools have examining authority, too. Just saying...
flyguy25
Well-Known Member
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...iv8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.7.1.8&idno=14
61.160:f
N8900.225 (which is attached below) Table 5 and 8:a:2:d (page 5 in the document) "
(d) A person who applies for an ATP certificate with restricted privileges may apply if he or she is at least 21 years of age and has at least 200 hours of cross-country flight time, provided that person also has 1,500 hours total time as a pilot and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of § 61.159.
So 1500 TT, 200 XC and all the other parts of 61.159. I also called my local FSDO to verify this. No aviation degree required.
PhilosopherPilot
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but on the whole, 141 has far more oversight than some dude who renews his cert every 2 years, and answers to no one. Just saying...
chrisreedrules
Master Blaster
If it were me, with those times I'd just find a job that allowed you to build up the Cxc time you needed for an unrestricted ATP. You could get that in a year or less easy.
On another note, does anyone know if a Redbird AATD would qualify as an acceptable sim for some of that 50 hours of Multi?
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Squares, sir.
Cazadores
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but on the whole, and down to the bottom line, a commercial pilot, according to the FAA, is a commercial pilot, end of story. If the regulators felt part 61 training was inadequate, or at least less adequate than 141 training, maybe the time to make the distinction would have been prior to thousands of pilots making decisions about training and their career goals. A DPE is a representative of the FAA, their signature indicates competence to PTS standards, 141 or 61 trained. Make an argument where suddenly a 141 trained CFI's 152 time in the pattern is worth a third more than a part 61 trained CFI, in the same 152, in the same pattern. It is a distinction that cannot be made consistently, and is arbitrary. It is literally a matter of time before this is changed, or a class is formed and files suit.
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snOOp
Well-Known Member
Agreed on that note as I've instructed those kinds of people
But on a serious note what about the professional pilots who trained pt 61 to get licenses cheaper instead of being branded out of a pilot mill?
The purposes of the lowered hours are defeated if a CFI teaching at 141 university got his licenses from a mom and pop part 61 school. I am not saying your wrong, just that the lowered hours cannot be justified with evidence...
sounddoc
Well-Known Member
THIS.....came one month too late as I just got hired 135/91K. Oh well, with an 18 month training contract to go through and all the single turbine XC I'll get in that time, I suppose it's a moot point, but I'll still have to go through the regionals afterwards anyway.
.
So after 18+ months of flying at my new job, I'll be pushing 39, and really not into crash pads and 20k salaries. But to answer your question, the only thing would be you wouldn't have to worry about the age requirements. In addition, without the aviation degree (which I suspect you're referring to) you'd only need 1500TT and 200XC. This is extremely doable as a CFI!
flyguy25
Well-Known Member
I agree that it can be hit or miss with part 61, but not all 141 is created equal. I have trained at both 61 and 141 schools and the worst training I ever had was at a large 141 pilot mill. Now the 141 school I currently flight instruct at has an excellent program. There are both good and bad schools no matter where you go. At the end of the day we are all held to the same FAA standards to get our pilot certificates.
Mike Garcia
New Member
Where did you go for your part 141 school?
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
I'm not a flight instructor and I don't have a dog in this fight anymore, but "Oh brother" comes to mind.
If experience really is to be everything, then 141 pilots should be required to have the exact same amount of total time as us Part 61ers.
snOOp
Well-Known Member
Man I wish there was a "like" one hundred times button for quotes like this.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Remember that I largely (1) cannot be arsed on this subject anymore and (2) am one of the folks who believes it's possible to operate an airliner safely as an FO with less than 1,500 hours.
Although the 141 wonder farm is probably a bad place to learn how to do that, too.
sounddoc
Well-Known Member
EXACTLY. You can be shown how to do something, or you can be taught how to do something.
You got a few free beers waiting in Boston, dude.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Meh, don't get too excited. It's a somewhat specious argument. It assumes that all flight time is created equally (and you know it isn't). Beyond a certain point the same hour repeated a large number of times doesn't make you a better pilot - and in fact it might make you an even worse one - and, and, it might even make you complacent.
But anyway...I like beer.
HVYMETALDRVR
Well-Known Member
snOOp
Well-Known Member
I don't think 141 flights schools are bad, but there is zero evidence of it being better than 61 schools. The parallel PTS standards between graduates of 141 and part 61 flight schools makes it illogical that graduates of a a 141 program can get there license R-ATP at 1000TT.
But hey, when a furlough occurs and the 141 grads only have an education in aviation and other co-workers have degrees with focuses outside aviation the joke will be on them...