National Airlines B747-400 Freighter (BCF) Down in Bagram, Afghanistan

SteveCostello said:
Oh, I don't doubt the strength of webbed material. But... MRAPs are crazy heavy. Between ~14 and ~26 tons, depending on their class and how they are outfitted. The effective holding power of the tie downs will be affected by the angle that they are attached to the load and the floor. Those were some pretty extreme angles in the pictures from that forum. The pictures I've seen of MRAPS tied down in military aircraft by military personnel show some pretty serious chains, and comparatively low angles between the load and the floor. In addition, the metal clasps at the end of those straps looked awfully dinky for a load that size, where as the chains end in a rather beefy turnbuckle. That, of course, might have a lot to do with the type of mounts available on a BCF.

Getting super deep into speculation here, of course, but again... it gets me thinking about how (or if!) I secure loads when I get back to flying, and I don't even fly cargo for a living.

Pardon me while I run out to get some chains for my flight bag. ;)
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The only difference between the bcf and the freighter model is where you can put cargo. Other than that the decks are Identical.
 
cmhumphr said:
I know that you aren't supposed to bother the configuration of the aircraft at such a low speed high AoA like that, but could extending the flaps have given them a little more last minute lift? I know it takes several seconds for a 747's flaps to move.
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A long time....
 
FM_Weasel said:
Would more lift have helped when all the weight was at one side of the seesaw?
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I think the only thing that may have helped them (if this was, indeed, a CG shift) would be the ability to actually move the wing back. Like... WAY back.

Huh. Come to think of it, there are obviously aircraft out there with variable sweep wings ( :oops: Oh, Tomcat, how we miss you... :cry: ). Has there ever been an aircraft out there with a variable center of lift, i.e., movable wing root?
 
SteveCostello said:
I think the only thing that may have helped them (if this was, indeed, a CG shift) would be the ability to actually move the wing back. Like... WAY back.

Huh. Come to think of it, there are obviously aircraft out there with variable sweep wings ( :oops: Oh, Tomcat, how we miss you... :cry: ). Has there ever been an aircraft out there with a variable center of lift, i.e., movable wing root?
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Chinook if you could power the rotors at different speeds. Fortunately there's absolutely nobody here with Chinook experience to question my ignorance here. :D
 
Murdoughnut said:
Chinook if you could power the rotors at different speeds. Fortunately there's absolutely nobody here with Chinook experience to question my ignorance here. :D
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Heard a lot of different crazy ideas about how a Chinook works but this is a first!
 
Please, ye gods of habit, help me remember to never read the comments.

The normal media channels have fallen to the level of 2007 youtube commenters. Youtube/article commenters, on the other hand, now remind me of people who should be busy watching Rehabilitation and Ow my Balls from the safety of their toilet chairs.

-Fox :/
 
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/w...ave-doomed-plane-that-crashed-near-kabul.html

"As the Boeing 747 began to take off from the Bagram Air Base, the vehicles slammed into the back of the cargo space so hard that parts of the plane broke off and were left on the runway, officials said"
…
"The plane, operated by National Air Cargo, a Michigan-based carrier, was loaded with three armored vehicles and two mine sweepers, almost 80 tons of equipment in all, for a flight from Afghanistan to Dubai, Mr. Qalatwal said. He said that the plane had been checked twice before takeoff, once two hours before departure and again just before it left, and that neither review had revealed any technical problems."
…
"The charred remains of the cargo straps were recovered from the site and appear to have been cut, but Mr. Qalatwal said it was unclear whether the damage had occurred before or after takeoff. The plane, consumed by fire from the crash, yielded little else in the wreckage, he said."
 
And From AVH: http://avherald.com/h?article=46183bb4&opt=0

I don't think that sabotage can be determined just yet, but certainly cannot be ruled out and may be being considered.

And as stated:

"If the problem was shifting cargo, it was “a freak accident,” said Mark V. Rosenker, a retired Air Force general who was a member of the N.T.S.B. from 2003 to 2009, and chairman for part of that period. But, he said, “it could be that one broke loose and flipped into the others.” In that case, he said, there would have been “a domino effect” inside the plane. "

I don't know after the fire how they will be able to determine the condition that all the straps/buckles either, i.e. if some were "stretched" or had other signs of wear. And we don't really know what "fractured" may be in this instance yet........torn away, cut and cut how.....what?

Just such a damn sad ending and for no good reason.

BTW, if anyone is interested and cares to donate to the families, even a small amount would help/be appreciated I am sure:

http://www.ncr102.org/
 
If there wasn't suspicion of sabotage, I would think Mr. Qalatwal might have used a different word rather than "cut" to describe the condition of the straps.
 
Yeesh. A few reports I've seen have indicated not just run-of-the-mill plane parts on the runway... but things like wiring harnesses and engine parts (APU?), and other assorted things from the back. Additionally, indications that certain components stopped working between rotation and when the aircraft was destroyed. So perhaps either the bulkhead got punched through or it was the mother of all tail strikes.

It will be amazing to me if the investigators are able to determine a specific cause to this, given the post crash destruction. But like Murdoughnut pointed out, those guys are incredibly good at what they do, and if there is a needle in that haystack, they will find it.
 
SteveCostello said:
It will be amazing to me if the investigators are able to determine a specific cause to this, given the post crash destruction. But like Murdoughnut pointed out, those guys are incredibly good at what they do, and if there is a needle in that haystack, they will find it.
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I truly hope this well be the case. The families deserve to know exactly what happened and the truth. Other crews and entities need to have the information/facts as well.
 
SteveCostello said:
It will be amazing to me if the investigators are able to determine a specific cause to this, given the post crash destruction. But like Murdoughnut pointed out, those guys are incredibly good at what they do, and if there is a needle in that haystack, they will find it.
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They (we) do the best job possible; but sometimes, there isn't a cause able to be determined. Not saying thats the case in this accident, but not all needles can always be found, and some accidents are left with "probable cause could not be determined".

Just don't want there to be false hope or belief that all accidents always get solved.
 
Understand that there may be the ever frustrating language issue rearing its head. "Cut", while seemingly insignificant to him, can change the entire context of the statement, as we know. WAY too early to understand the breadth of his statement, unfortunately.
 
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