U.S. Airways/American suing FAA

genot said:
Since no other controller has chimed in...



Controllers took a 33% cut in the pay bands from 2006 to 2010. For already certified controllers it was essentially a pay freeze, for trainees at the time it was a true 33% pay cut. Those trainees haven't seen a legitimate length of service raise since they've been hired to this day 7 years later. I get what you're saying, but we've already given more than anyone in the public sector.



Phase out FSS? Who will open and close VFR flight plans/distributes and disseminates NOTAMs/PIREPs/TFRs/weather briefs/enroute weather/enters IFR flight plans/relays clearances? There is a significant population out there that doesn't use tablets or smart phones as well as situations that those devises aren't a suitable replacement.

Also, your statement about contract controllers making 50% of what FAA controllers do is simply not true if you compare apples to apples. Most (certainly not all) contract towers are on par with an FAA level 4 or 5 VFR tower. I know what two contract companies pay in the CONUS and their pay is in line with the FAA level 4 and 5 pay scale.

The tower controllers making about twice what a contract controller makes are in places like DCA and LGA. I don't think you can, with a straight face, compare working the average contract tower with LGA or DCA and argue that they should earn the same.

Also, realize that a large portion of savings that a contract tower sees is due to single staffing most towers. The FAA doesn't allow their own facilities to staff with one controller at a time after COM5191. I personally believe that is wise policy.
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Thanks for posting this.
 
Okay, the Wojo Incident, while similarly scatological in nature, was not the event cited in the blessed info report. The author of that puppy was one Captain DF, if memory serves. Both are masters of their craft.

The Wojo Incident, without getting into too much detail, was a exercise in the decisions that must be made when Montezuma calls and a return to the gate is no longer an option. The grace and aplomb with which it was handled was nothing short of inspiring. Both pilots have long since moved on to better things, and big shiny airplanes with lavs as far as the eye can see.

On a more topical note, the pilots I still know at Lakes are about ready to strangle the Lockheed brain trust on a daily basis. "More bang for the same buck" is a great idea, but the people who are at the vanguard of this outsourcing exercise are virtually all of the opinion that the bang has decreased in proportion to the buck. And those examples are mostly rural operations, without anywhere near the volume or stress level of a major US aviation hub. This only sounds like a good idea to uninformed keyboard jockeys, and there are almost as many of them in the government as there are on internet forums.
 
thepotato232 said:
Okay, the Wojo Incident, while similarly scatological in nature, was not the event cited in the blessed info report. The author of that puppy was one Captain DF, if memory serves. Both are masters of their craft.

The Wojo Incident, without getting into too much detail, was a exercise in the decisions that must be made when Montezuma calls and a return to the gate is no longer an option. The grace and aplomb with which it was handled was nothing short of inspiring. Both pilots have long since moved on to better things, and big shiny airplanes with lavs as far as the eye can see.
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Do you happen to know what airlines?

Those guys would be awesome to have brewskis with.
 
wheelsup said:
Great so we can safely outsource from 13 on down then, right?

I don't really know how much FAA ATC's make but from what I read online contract guys make around $60k with a few bucks an hour extra for benefits (retirement and medical). Seems to me a significant savings over the FAA guys in comparable facilities.

If you guys are on par on a cost level basis than forget everything I wrote, but personally if we can get more bang for the same buck let's do it.
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That's largely because contract guys work some pretty slow airspace. Places where it's doubtful a tower is really needed for the most part.
 
You're going to pay for talent to have an efficient air traffic system. If you start cutting pay significantly, the experienced controllers are going to leave and new hires, who could have been good to great potential controllers, are going to go into different career paths. This will be worse at the busier and more complex facilities. Hell, you run a tenth to a quarter of a mile (500 to 1300 feet) too much spacing between airplanes, at certain facilities, you will probably get pulled off position and delays stretch across the country.
 
wheelsup said:
Phase out FSS and continue to privatize ATC, that will save a bundle, the contract tower guys make something like 50% of their FAA counterparts...
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Yes great idea! Why dont we outsource, farm out, phase out, contract out, etc... everyone's jobs in this country including whatever it is that you do for a living, and then pay everyone 50% less for these new outsourced, farmed out, phased out, contracted out, etc... jobs.


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alphasierra01 said:
How about reducing Congressional pay by 33%, instead. I'm absolutely positive that will motivate them to work together and find better solutions than furloughing controllers and closing towers.
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It won't. Most of them make their money from outside sources, and being lobbied.
 
kfrgflyer said:
Yes great idea! Why dont we outsource, farm out, phase out, contract out, etc... everyone's jobs in this country including whatever it is that you do for a living, and then pay everyone 50% less for these new outsourced, farmed out, phased out, contracted out, etc... jobs.


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Well I already work for a contractor. So I know what it's like.

The biggest problem with having the FAA run the show is there is simply no innovation and inefficiency. Government is piss-poor at actually getting things done. They are great at funding, but horrible at doing.

Look at it this way. Before deregulation airlines were incredibly inefficient and prices were high. After deregulation, safety is light years ahead of where it was back then, more passengers than ever are flying, and prices are half or less of what they were not even counting 30+ years of inflation.
 
This thread has so much :bang: it's ridiculous!

If you want to increase pay and benefits for the flying side, you have to support the other side that keeps you flying (uhhhh ATC). Pilots bitch and moan about the degradation of their pay and benefits and the constant 'outsourcing' to the lowest paid airline yet SUGGEST to outsource our ATC brothers and sisters to a PRIVATE company? Oh GIMME A BREAK! Real professionals, one at a time...
 
Bigey said:
This thread has so much :bang: it's ridiculous!

If you want to increase pay and benefits for the flying side, you have to support the other side that keeps you flying (uhhhh ATC). Pilots bitch and moan about the degradation of their pay and benefits and the constant 'outsourcing' to the lowest paid airline yet SUGGEST to outsource our ATC brothers and sisters to a PRIVATE company? Oh GIMME A BREAK! Real professionals, one at a time...
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Great let's go back to 40 years ago then. Most of us would be out of a job. Inefficient and prices set by a government agency (maybe we could work there). On the plus side the few guys who remain employed would be making bank on a government controlled monopoly. Sounds like a great idea.

People are forgetting that already, there are some ATC services outsourced. I learned to fly at one (Nashua NH) and taught at another (Farmington NM). Honestly I had no idea either one was a contract tower until just recently.
 
genot said:
Again apples to apples please. YYZ would be the 13th busiest tower in the US and Vancouver the 28th or 29th after Centential if they were they American. The US ATC system is more comparable to the continent of Europe. You can skip to about 2:50 for the salient points.


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That was a fantastic video!
 
wheelsup said:
People are forgetting that already, there are some ATC services outsourced. I learned to fly at one (Nashua NH) and taught at another (Farmington NM). Honestly I had no idea either one was a contract tower until just recently.
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Contract towers are generally located at the less busy airports for a reason. A for-profit enterprise can get away with minimal staffing at such quiet locations; the risk is low, and the product doesn't usually suffer too much.

Contract out a center, and you will see the same delays that we just experienced as a result of the sequester. I'm not saying the current set-up is great, but the staffing is pretty much guaranteed to be at a high enough level to facilitate expeditious traffic flow, even if it costs 50% more than it should. I think the recent congressional action shows that most of the customers prefer expediency over cost savings.
 
Bernoulli Fan said:
Contract towers are generally located at the less busy airports for a reason. A for-profit enterprise can get away with minimal staffing at such quiet locations; the risk is low, and the product doesn't usually suffer too much.

Contract out a center, and you will see the same delays that we just experienced as a result of the sequester. I'm not saying the current set-up is great, but the staffing is pretty much guaranteed to be at a high enough level to facilitate expeditious traffic flow, even if it costs 50% more than it should. I think the recent congressional action shows that most of the customers prefer expediency over cost savings.
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If you read someone's post in this thread, he stated that YYZ (Toronto) would be the 13th busiest airport in the US. All of Canada's ATC is privatized. I'm not saying I don't disagree with you, but the order of magnitude I think. I can't find anywhere the savings had by contracting out ATC services, so I can't really offer any numbers.

I would also disagree that the product would suffer. Canada is excellent in their control, honestly I personally go to Canada a lot, Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal, sometimes Halifax. Have you experienced any issues going there? I actually feel they do a superb job controlling aircraft.

Nashua, NH used to be home a fairly large flight school operation (Daniel Webster). I was #12 or #13 in the pattern once. This was a contract tower. Farmington, NM also had a fairly large flight school presence (MAPD). I really think people are just trying to "be cool" and go with the crowd on this one. I'm playing devil's advocate here.
 
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