RRPower
Well-Known Member
Our fleet has the 8 and 20 detents. I was told a long time ago we have the hot and high option on all of our planes. I can't possibly imagine what the cold and low option is...I guess that would involve us peddling.
Flying the CRJ-200...tell me about it please....
- Thread starter bunk22
- Start date
Our fleet has the 8 and 20 detents. I was told a long time ago we have the hot and high option on all of our planes. I can't possibly imagine what the cold and low option is...I guess that would involve us peddling.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
It's actually a description of which engineer you had on the Canadair team, the stoner who jerked around the thermostat or the depressed loner who spent most of his time outside wishing he wasn't Canadian.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
Allow me to pontificate for a minute (while I delay going to the gym because it's snow outside and ain't nobody got time for that), and derail this thread again.
Over the last about 3 years I've started to see an entitlement attitude coming from a different sort of newhire than in the past. From when I upgraded until recently, the most difficult new hire FOs to deal with were the super low time guys who spent big bucks at a flight school, got their 250 or 300 hours and then walked in the front door of a regional. Not only were their actual flying skills crap (and I'm generalizing, many were very talented pilots) but they also had terrible attitudes about being at a "regional", once they got over the awe of flying a big, exciting, shiny jet. These guys would spend 2 months on reserve and feel like they should already have a line. These guys would have to work a holiday and complain that it wasn't fair. These guys would see their two year anniversary go by and (very vocally) wonder why the hell they weren't upgrading yet, never mind the fact that they had no idea how to be captains anyway. After the boom of 2007-2009 slowed down, these guys settled in to the fact that they were going to be FOs for a while and maybe on reserve for a while and their attitudes improved slightly.
More recently the entitlement attitude is coming from military guys and frankly I'm amazed. Now, keep in mind, I work at a small (500 pilot) carrier and I've only flown with 5 new hire ex military guys in the last few years but amazingly, 4 out of the 5 felt like they were slumming at a regional and really should be at Southwest already. All but one of them were very polite about it, but they certainly made it VERY clear, right away, that they had the time, experience and skills to go straight to a major and it pained them greatly to have to fly around in a "little" jet (which is ironic considering what several of them flew was much smaller than an RJ). No amount of discussion and explaining about how lots of guys who have the experience and skills and time weren't go to majors right now either would dissuade them from their viewpoint which essentially boiled down to "I put my time in the military, I shouldn't have to go to a regional." And in the past, that was certainly true. But in the past, for those of us who didn't go the military route, once we got our 1000 PIC hours at a regional, we could waltz over to a mainline carrier too. It doesn't work like that any more.
And frankly (and this is were I may start stepping on toes), the skill set that many military aviators have perfected over the years doesn't really transfer very well to the civilian 121 flying world. Sure, their stick and rudder skills are boss. Their judgment is generally very good. Their radio com skills are excellent (which, after the past few months I've had is actually pretty rare in some new hires). But, (and I'm generalizing) many of them have very poor or no customer service skills. Also, the "mission attitude" carries over and I've had to explain several times that just because the company tells us to go fly out into a hurricane and "see if we can get in" doesn't mean we actually have to accept the routing and go. And you know what? Those things are just as important to have as the stick and rudder stuff in this type of flying. Are some military guys fine at adapting to that? Sure. But many aren't, and frankly spending some time down here in regional hell learning how to provide customer service (in addition to just flying the plane around) before heading off to United (or where ever) isn't such a bad thing.
Again, everybody is different and I'm sure a lot of retiring mil guys would have no problem walking in the door at a major and being Pilot Of The Month (which, by the way, is almost always awarded for NON FLYING related above and beyond sort of things) their first month online, but not all of them. Don't get me wrong, I'm very thankful that mil guys went out and served this country. Many made a career out of it and that's great. They were taught to fly, they were paid (mostly well) to take risks and be away from home for long periods of time. That's great. But I do understand why some people who DIDN'T go that route are being kind of vocal (and it's not just on this forum by the way that I've seen this) about being perceived as second class citizens because they have to trudge through several (many?) years of regional life before heading on to the big show, if they are ever so lucky as to get an invite.
Over the last about 3 years I've started to see an entitlement attitude coming from a different sort of newhire than in the past. From when I upgraded until recently, the most difficult new hire FOs to deal with were the super low time guys who spent big bucks at a flight school, got their 250 or 300 hours and then walked in the front door of a regional. Not only were their actual flying skills crap (and I'm generalizing, many were very talented pilots) but they also had terrible attitudes about being at a "regional", once they got over the awe of flying a big, exciting, shiny jet. These guys would spend 2 months on reserve and feel like they should already have a line. These guys would have to work a holiday and complain that it wasn't fair. These guys would see their two year anniversary go by and (very vocally) wonder why the hell they weren't upgrading yet, never mind the fact that they had no idea how to be captains anyway. After the boom of 2007-2009 slowed down, these guys settled in to the fact that they were going to be FOs for a while and maybe on reserve for a while and their attitudes improved slightly.
More recently the entitlement attitude is coming from military guys and frankly I'm amazed. Now, keep in mind, I work at a small (500 pilot) carrier and I've only flown with 5 new hire ex military guys in the last few years but amazingly, 4 out of the 5 felt like they were slumming at a regional and really should be at Southwest already. All but one of them were very polite about it, but they certainly made it VERY clear, right away, that they had the time, experience and skills to go straight to a major and it pained them greatly to have to fly around in a "little" jet (which is ironic considering what several of them flew was much smaller than an RJ). No amount of discussion and explaining about how lots of guys who have the experience and skills and time weren't go to majors right now either would dissuade them from their viewpoint which essentially boiled down to "I put my time in the military, I shouldn't have to go to a regional." And in the past, that was certainly true. But in the past, for those of us who didn't go the military route, once we got our 1000 PIC hours at a regional, we could waltz over to a mainline carrier too. It doesn't work like that any more.
And frankly (and this is were I may start stepping on toes), the skill set that many military aviators have perfected over the years doesn't really transfer very well to the civilian 121 flying world. Sure, their stick and rudder skills are boss. Their judgment is generally very good. Their radio com skills are excellent (which, after the past few months I've had is actually pretty rare in some new hires). But, (and I'm generalizing) many of them have very poor or no customer service skills. Also, the "mission attitude" carries over and I've had to explain several times that just because the company tells us to go fly out into a hurricane and "see if we can get in" doesn't mean we actually have to accept the routing and go. And you know what? Those things are just as important to have as the stick and rudder stuff in this type of flying. Are some military guys fine at adapting to that? Sure. But many aren't, and frankly spending some time down here in regional hell learning how to provide customer service (in addition to just flying the plane around) before heading off to United (or where ever) isn't such a bad thing.
Again, everybody is different and I'm sure a lot of retiring mil guys would have no problem walking in the door at a major and being Pilot Of The Month (which, by the way, is almost always awarded for NON FLYING related above and beyond sort of things) their first month online, but not all of them. Don't get me wrong, I'm very thankful that mil guys went out and served this country. Many made a career out of it and that's great. They were taught to fly, they were paid (mostly well) to take risks and be away from home for long periods of time. That's great. But I do understand why some people who DIDN'T go that route are being kind of vocal (and it's not just on this forum by the way that I've seen this) about being perceived as second class citizens because they have to trudge through several (many?) years of regional life before heading on to the big show, if they are ever so lucky as to get an invite.
learhawkerbe400
Well-Known Member
121 flying is not hard. 250 hour guys used to do it all the time. Doesnt take a long time to figure out how ramp control/ ops works. Civilian pilots have no idea what military pilot training is like. Most of them wouldn't even get accepted. Lots don't make it through. It's not like learning to fly at riddle or Jim bobs flight school. Not trying to be a dick, but you have no idea what military pilots go through. No one is bashing the regionals. Just saying mil guys have the quals to bypass them.
SeanD
Well-Known Member
Sure, maybe over ten years ago they could have bypassed them. However, you have thousands of regional captains who have been "slumming" it at the regionals for years while legacy hiring was non existent. They are very well prepared to move on to bigger and better things and likely have a lot more time then those folks coming out of the military. You need to also remember, making the leap to a regional opens up networking opportunities. Some of those connections might lead to a job at the majors. Networking is equally important as having the required times IMHO. All in all, everyone has the same end goal and they all have to start somewhere.
bunk22
Well-Known Member
I certainly don't want this to turn into a thread about military pilots versus civilian. My only goal here was to here about flying the CRJ-200, nothing else. I know a few people had to come in and ruin it though it should have been expected being the internet. Best the thread just comes to an end I think.
Screaming_Emu
Well-Known Member
I dunno. I want to believe you. But I instructed some naval academy grads through IFS. This experience made me think a bit less of at least the naval academy, if not the whole organization. My absolute best student is now a seabee because they decided they had too many people in training and anyone with any kind of waiver (in this case contact lenses) was suddenly unworthy. Yet the two students who failed multiple tests straight out of the Jeppsen PPL syllabus were allowed to retake them and somehow got through training in Pensacola.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
First off, that's an assumption that I have no idea what sort of training mil pilots go through. Secondly, I'm pretty damn certain the the qualification I am talking about are NOT taught to students in any branch of the military. So I'd say, no, a military pilot doesn't necessarily have the qualifications to bypass the regionals. I have done three interviews with major/legacy airlines in the past year and in EVERY single one of them, the number of customer service type questions far outweighed any sort of flying skill/knowledge based questions. Without fail, almost every TMAAT question I got was geared towards a dealing with a passenger/crewmember/gate agent sort of issue and not a bingo fuel and bad weather, what do you do question. Also, only one place had a sim eval and the majority of the session was geared towards CRM decision making and not stick and rudder/flying judgment skills.
That said, I'm still at a regional for now, despite those three interviews, so it is entirely possible an 8 year regional captain doesn't have the skills required to got a major either.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
That is all.
NC_BE300
Well-Known Member
I really dont know anymore.....even went digging thru my old ground school notes from 6 years ago.....came up empty.
flyinguitar
Well-Known Member
One of my classmates is a former F-15 pilot and T-38 instructor. When we compare notes on students and instructing, it's clear that he did not have the same frustrations with military students as I did with civilian students. When you think about it, one group is one of the most highly selected in the world, whereas the entrance criteria for the other is to be able to get a loan and pass a minimal physical exam. Sure, actually making it through training will weed out the bottom feeders, but there's still a drastic difference between the two groups.
But, at the end of the day, are the elements that make military pilots outstanding an asset in part 121 flying?
Reminds me of a story I heard from a former director of training at a now-defunct regional airline who was coaching a new-hire vietnam-era F-4 pilot who was having trouble in the sim. The trainee said "Hold altitude? I don't hold altitude, I blow things up!"
But, at the end of the day, are the elements that make military pilots outstanding an asset in part 121 flying?
Reminds me of a story I heard from a former director of training at a now-defunct regional airline who was coaching a new-hire vietnam-era F-4 pilot who was having trouble in the sim. The trainee said "Hold altitude? I don't hold altitude, I blow things up!"
bunk22
Well-Known Member
First off, without really knowing the entire story, it's hard to determine why one student doesn't get through and others don't. When the military doesn't need people, they tighten the regs or make new ones. When they need people, they loosen the rules, let people through. IFS is what it is, Introductory Flight Screening, it has never proven much beyond someone might have the aptitude or desire to fly.
bunk22
Well-Known Member
First off, that's an assumption that I have no idea what sort of training mil pilots go through. Secondly, I'm pretty damn certain the the qualification I am talking about are NOT taught to students in any branch of the military. So I'd say, no, a military pilot doesn't necessarily have the qualifications to bypass the regionals. I have done three interviews with major/legacy airlines in the past year and in EVERY single one of them, the number of customer service type questions far outweighed any sort of flying skill/knowledge based questions. Without fail, almost every TMAAT question I got was geared towards a dealing with a passenger/crewmember/gate agent sort of issue and not a bingo fuel and bad weather, what do you do question. Also, only one place had a sim eval and the majority of the session was geared towards CRM decision making and not stick and rudder/flying judgment skills.
That said, I'm still at a regional for now, despite those three interviews, so it is entirely possible an 8 year regional captain doesn't have the skills required to got a major either.
In the three interviews I've had, they have bypassed any of the 121 CRM type questions...well, really any 121 questions, I wouldn't have the answers. They have asked me about a time I had a conflict with a superior officer or aircraft commander in the cockpit. Tough if I had been single seat!! Though half of my flights this last year were solo (formation lead), I have so many stories...as anyone would, during my 20 year career. Some I'd rather forget (poor performance on my part) and others are great learning experiences.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
You should not-try harder.
smack300
Well-Known Member
PropDriver
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing that the ones doing .78 are either going to the overnight or on the last leg of the trip.
RRPower
Well-Known Member
One of the the best write-ups I've seen. Unfortunately, the whole military vs civilian in the airlines is about like arguing Republic vs Democrat. Doesn't matter how clear and obvious the point is to one side, the other side will always see it differently and refuse to be swayed. In my personal experience as well as the thousands of hours I have commuted on a certain mainline that is heavy on the military pilots, I will say that they, IMHO , make terrible airline pilots. While, as BobDDuck put it, I am generalizing, that is my observation. It's just two differing opinions on what makes a great pilot. They can land on an aircraft carrier...wow, they can put a C-17 on a sand dune in Afghanistan...wow, they can aerial refuel...wow, they can fly with the precision of the blue angels...wow. All of those skills mean squat at an airline. So instead of high fiving each other when you slam in on the big blocks on the runway in classic F-18 3-wire fashion and turning off in 500ft, maybe you could strive to actually have your paying passengers say how nice a flight they had with your ever so gentle control movements and your greaser of a landing. I really couldn't care less about the military guys, and the only reason I get worked up over it, is they look down on those of us that didn't fly in the military as somehow beneath them in skill and experience. You flew around with nightvision goggles through the mountains of Afghanistan...I have several thousand instrument approaches down to minimums in some of the worst weather known to man...tell me who's skill is being utilized more? Passengers are not impressed that you have the precision to bang on an airplane just because you "called your spot"...they are impressed when they don't know they were climbing, descending, turning, or landing...I suggest challenging yourself to master those.
Gah, I always fall into the trap of complaining about this subject. Ohh well, I contributed CRJ-200 info earlier on in the thread so I'm giving myself a pass...