DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
That. And never go to a flight school called Jet U. It's really embarrassing.
Manual Flight - What's your thought?
- Thread starter Ryan Fitzgerald
- Start date
That. And never go to a flight school called Jet U. It's really embarrassing.
staledog
Well-Known Member
I have always been told that you must use the AP in RVSM airspace, and I have actually never heard that it is ok to hand fly during the climb and descent. Assuming you are correct, I guess I just learned something today.
staledog
Well-Known Member
You are required to use the AP in RVSM airspace, at least during cruise (according to PeanuckleCRJ)...
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
With the new RNAV departures, like out of DFW and SDF, we are "encouraged" to use the autopilot at 400 agl. That's just how things are going.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
Check out the reg as well as your FOM or other governing document. You'll verify it.
PeanuckleCRJ
Poodle Wrangler
I've noticed many carriers are doing that.... many, including USair requiring the autopilot to be coupled during the RNAV departure. Pretty dang ridiculous if you ask me- further dumbing down of aviation. Is it really too much to ask your pilots to be able to hand fly laterally a half mile either side of course?
Thankfully we just have to have verification up that we are within the course and can handfly to our hearts content. I can't remember the last time I heard about an RNAV departure bust attributable to hand flying in our safety newsletters.
Plenty of climb via busts due to the still horribly cumbersome phraseology, though.
Mike Wise
#NewSchool
I know theres a few of you that actually fly aircraft for a living (or are retired) and this question is for you. I'm a 14 year old Student Pilot with over 40 hours in a 172. I just finished watching a newer ACI of Air France Flight 447. This has always been my "favorite" air investigation and I've read/watched a lot about it. In this ACI they mentioned something about how pilots (of Airbus aircraft especially) are getting more reliant on the automation in aircraft. Now, I've heard this many times but I've never quite thought about it as much as I did after hearing it in this show. The biggest thing that got me thinking was when the guy mentioned on how the pilots ability to fly the aircraft manually is deteriorating. The first thing that I thought of was my instructor. He has flown to places like Miami from Virginia in a brand new Diamond DA40 XLS and never even attempted to touch the autopilot. I thought that was crazy! Before hearing that I always dreamed of owning a plane just like that so I could HAVE an autopilot. Well my thoughts switched to owning an older 182 maybe with NO autopilot. (Ya know, you always wanna be like your instructor!) and automation is easy! So if I ever wanted to use that, it would be no problem switching back to manual flight! I could have flown the aircraft like there was no automation installed whatsoever when it shut down! Or I could have already been flying it manually! (I'm not saying that I could have prevented that though!!) Basically, I just wanted to get a conversation going and hear some of your thoughts on flying the aircraft manually vs using automation. I don't really know - I'm just a 14 year old student pilot!
Thanks!
- Ryan
P.S. - Just for the heck of it, I posted a poll on what YOU (as professional pilots) prefer to do. Manual or Autopilot.
Hi Ryan, I'm a student pilot as well, but I think one of the more beneficial parts of having autopilot in larger aircraft is the precision of the performance estimation that an FMC can provide, and the amount of fuel savings it generates an airline. I always like to imagine if its possible to hand fly, and match every move an autopilot would make specifically with climbs (or step climbs?), T/D's, and thrust settings.
Cheers!
Mike
TowJoe
You really Schruted that one
Our manual says it is just required equipment for RVSM. I have never heard it is required to be used in RVSM.
PositionAndHold
Well-Known Member
This is from the Advisory Aircular AC 91-85 Appendix 4
"NOTE: It is recommended that the level off be accomplished using the altitude capture feature of the automatic altitude-control system, if installed.
e. An automatic altitude-control system should be operative and engaged during level cruise, except when circumstances such as the need to retrim the aircraft or turbulence require disengagement. In any event, adherence to cruise altitude should be done by reference to one of the two primary altimeters;"
I've always understood it as once level in RVSM airspace the autopilot should be engaged barring a few small instances. So hand fly it up to cruise and engage George. This is also just for pt.91 ops. Other FOM/GOM’s might have different requirements depending on company.
Here's the link to the AC if any one is interested.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 91-85.pdf
"NOTE: It is recommended that the level off be accomplished using the altitude capture feature of the automatic altitude-control system, if installed.
e. An automatic altitude-control system should be operative and engaged during level cruise, except when circumstances such as the need to retrim the aircraft or turbulence require disengagement. In any event, adherence to cruise altitude should be done by reference to one of the two primary altimeters;"
I've always understood it as once level in RVSM airspace the autopilot should be engaged barring a few small instances. So hand fly it up to cruise and engage George. This is also just for pt.91 ops. Other FOM/GOM’s might have different requirements depending on company.
Here's the link to the AC if any one is interested.
http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 91-85.pdf
z987k
Well-Known Member
Haha, we've got a 530 on top of a 430 with a 330 xponder all driving the 600 unit.(GDU620 and whatever they call the MFD.)
I like it. It's better than a second pilot.
Here's a pic of the 620.
Oh, and ya, -10s FTW! Most of our stuff has -5's. The ones that do have -10s are just amazing.
DPApilot
GUYSH! GUYSH! GUYSH!
I hand fly up to 10 unless its really rough out, because Sven (I fly a Saab so George just isn't a fitting name) does a
Much better job in that crap. I have hand flown a few flights in their entirety, and old girl trims out quite nice.
I also have 500 hours hand flying the flying forehead around south Florida too though.
As per out company, we don't have any requirement when we have to turn Sven on, just when we need to have him off.
Much better job in that crap. I have hand flown a few flights in their entirety, and old girl trims out quite nice.
I also have 500 hours hand flying the flying forehead around south Florida too though.
As per out company, we don't have any requirement when we have to turn Sven on, just when we need to have him off.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Check out the reg as well as your FOM or other governing document. You'll verify it.
Which says that you can have the AP off to trim the aircraft while in cruise in RVSM airspace.
If you've always got the trim running, which you almost invariably do...
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
God you're such a pansy these days!!!Haha, we've got a 530 on top of a 430 with a 330 xponder all driving the 600 unit.(GDU620 and whatever they call the MFD.)
I like it. It's better than a second pilot.
Here's a pic of the 620.
Oh, and ya, -10s FTW! Most of our stuff has -5's. The ones that do have -10s are just amazing.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I prefer manual flying any time the airplane has to maneuver. Exponential manual control inputs>Jorge's instant deflection. Though maybe the heavy metal is better at this. Can't say I notice much of the moving around riding in the back.
Auto pilot in cruise though. I want to scratch out my brain most days since most of our 99s don't have autopilots and that particular plane is a serious • in cruise.
Auto pilot in cruise though. I want to scratch out my brain most days since most of our 99s don't have autopilots and that particular plane is a serious • in cruise.
SeanD
Well-Known Member
Thats a good one. It does have a Larry King type of profile doesnt it?
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
OP:
When I flew the ERJ, I would hand-fly to around 10,000 most days and punch the autopilot off below about 5,000' on nice VFR days. If I had a good reason to leave the automation on, I'd leave it on, and if I had a good reason to turn it on earlier (say, high workload) I would do that too. I also hand-flew a few of the shorter legs (DFW-GRK, ABI, TYR etc.) on a pretty regular basis. I left cruising to the autopilot. Policy required that the autopilot be engaged during level cruise in RVSM airspace.
I use the autopilot more down low on the Brasilia, as strange as that sounds, but that's because we spend more time down low, and I'd rather be looking for other airplanes. I still will handfly to Carlsbad or so every once in a while.
When I flew the ERJ, I would hand-fly to around 10,000 most days and punch the autopilot off below about 5,000' on nice VFR days. If I had a good reason to leave the automation on, I'd leave it on, and if I had a good reason to turn it on earlier (say, high workload) I would do that too. I also hand-flew a few of the shorter legs (DFW-GRK, ABI, TYR etc.) on a pretty regular basis. I left cruising to the autopilot. Policy required that the autopilot be engaged during level cruise in RVSM airspace.
I use the autopilot more down low on the Brasilia, as strange as that sounds, but that's because we spend more time down low, and I'd rather be looking for other airplanes. I still will handfly to Carlsbad or so every once in a while.
Same at Beagle on the ERJ, but I was never thoroughly satisfied with its performance.
seagull
Well-Known Member
A couple of comments:
1. Yes, need to use the a/p in RVSM cruise flight although you are allowed to turn it off momentarily to trim the aircraft, etc.
2. Autopilot is deferrable, and prior to RVSM, it was rare, but not unheard of, to have the autopilot inoperative for even a transcon. We just would switch off, taking turns flying, but it was tiring. Jet aircraft at cruise are fairly sensitive, with one degree of pitch making a big difference in vertical speed!
3. Brings me to point 3 regarding skills. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to even practice at the higher FL's now due to RVSM, which is a shame, because the aircraft gets much more sensitive due to the lower q-factors. Hard to expect someone to be able to do something they are not even ALLOWED to practice;
4. The aft stick on AF447 was likely a return to primacy as that is how you would get alpha-floor for recovery at a lower altitude in normal law. Training is the main issue here, not expected human performance, see point 3. A significant portion of the pilot population would have done the same, and that is the scary aspect of that accident;
5. The use of automation depends on the tactical or strategic situation, absent regulatory reasons (such as low vis or RVSM). If something is a known path in advance, the automation can be programmed and do a good job. For a change that needs to happen right now, you have to move to a lower level, including hand flying and not waiting for heading or altitudes to be changed on the mode panels (called various things by different OEMs).
As for my personal taste, I usually hand-fly to FL250 on departure, and turn it off as soon as cleared for a visual (or runway in sight) on an instrument approach. I do not do it earlier on approach as things can be a lot busier on the way in then on departure, and the planning phase is still going on until those portions of the approach. I have turned off everything at top of descent, and do it every once in a while, if we are going into someplace that is pretty quiet, but that is pretty rare, as most of the busy airports in the U.S., Europe and East Asia do not give you that opportunity. Some of the more remote places do, though, and that is always fun.
1. Yes, need to use the a/p in RVSM cruise flight although you are allowed to turn it off momentarily to trim the aircraft, etc.
2. Autopilot is deferrable, and prior to RVSM, it was rare, but not unheard of, to have the autopilot inoperative for even a transcon. We just would switch off, taking turns flying, but it was tiring. Jet aircraft at cruise are fairly sensitive, with one degree of pitch making a big difference in vertical speed!
3. Brings me to point 3 regarding skills. Unfortunately, we are not allowed to even practice at the higher FL's now due to RVSM, which is a shame, because the aircraft gets much more sensitive due to the lower q-factors. Hard to expect someone to be able to do something they are not even ALLOWED to practice;
4. The aft stick on AF447 was likely a return to primacy as that is how you would get alpha-floor for recovery at a lower altitude in normal law. Training is the main issue here, not expected human performance, see point 3. A significant portion of the pilot population would have done the same, and that is the scary aspect of that accident;
5. The use of automation depends on the tactical or strategic situation, absent regulatory reasons (such as low vis or RVSM). If something is a known path in advance, the automation can be programmed and do a good job. For a change that needs to happen right now, you have to move to a lower level, including hand flying and not waiting for heading or altitudes to be changed on the mode panels (called various things by different OEMs).
As for my personal taste, I usually hand-fly to FL250 on departure, and turn it off as soon as cleared for a visual (or runway in sight) on an instrument approach. I do not do it earlier on approach as things can be a lot busier on the way in then on departure, and the planning phase is still going on until those portions of the approach. I have turned off everything at top of descent, and do it every once in a while, if we are going into someplace that is pretty quiet, but that is pretty rare, as most of the busy airports in the U.S., Europe and East Asia do not give you that opportunity. Some of the more remote places do, though, and that is always fun.
Autothrust Blue
Welcome aboard the Washington State Ferries
Somewhat off thread: I'm really, really glad that I'm not the only person who thinks this way about this accident.
It's not as open and shut as "they didn't know how to recover from a stall." It's orders of magnitude more complicated than that, and pokes into areas that should be poked into, but will likely result in some level of industry butthurt. A 30,000-foot (no pun intended) view of the accident touches on human-computer interaction, automation dependency, primary training, aircraft systems, and the list just goes on.