Save the contract towers

Subsidize my paycheck? I didn't want to do that after 9/11 to yours, but unfortunately our elected representatives thought different.

The airlines were directly attacked, and the government bears the responsibility for that. But setting that aside, you should look into what actually happened following 9/11. The only thing the government did for the airlines was the ATSB, and those weren't grants, they were loans. And virtually none of them were approved. America West got one and paid it back. That was about it. The airlines got the shaft from the government after government incompetence led to four lost aircraft and the lost lives of the crews.

The airline business as a whole has been subsidized waaaaaaaay more then a user fee could ever hope to generate. If it wasn't for us the tax payer, the airlines would not exist as you know them. I would argue your job might not even exist. Every time an airline manager has a problem, they run to labor, congress or who ever else they can try to blame/take a handout from.

Really? Perhaps you could expound upon where you see these "handouts" and "subsidies."

As far as NextGen goes. I do consider my self an expert.

Lots of people consider themselves experts. Guess what? It ain't true. Operating an "aviation appliance," as Boris calls them, doesn't make someone an expert on NextGen. Not even close.

Keep ignoring the true intent of what I've been saying. That professional pilots are arguing against other professionals they share the sky with. Conquer and divide, it's what our masters want. Us arguing with each other instead of standing together.

That's easy to say when you're the one getting the long end of the stick here. Clearly you don't want any change, because the status quo is in your favor. Sorry, but some of us aren't in favor of lying down and accepting it.
 
Lots of people consider themselves experts. Guess what? It ain't true. Operating an "aviation appliance," as Boris calls them, doesn't make someone an expert on NextGen. Not even close.

Lots of people consider themselves experts. Guess what? It ain't true. Operating an "aviation appliance," as Boris calls them, doesn't make someone an expert on the Airport and Airway Trust Fund, and who pays enough and who doesn't.
 
Lots of people consider themselves experts. Guess what? It ain't true. Operating an "aviation appliance," as Boris calls them, doesn't make someone an expert on the Airport and Airway Trust Fund, and who pays enough and who doesn't.

How to best tax is not something that is factual, it's something that is based purely on opinion. But nice try.
 
The airlines were directly attacked, and the government bears the responsibility for that. But setting that aside, you should look into what actually happened following 9/11. The only thing the government did for the airlines was the ATSB, and those weren't grants, they were loans. And virtually none of them were approved. America West got one and paid it back. That was about it. The airlines got the shaft from the government after government incompetence led to four lost aircraft and the lost lives of the crews.



Really? Perhaps you could expound upon where you see these "handouts" and "subsidies."



Lots of people consider themselves experts. Guess what? It ain't true. Operating an "aviation appliance," as Boris calls them, doesn't make someone an expert on NextGen. Not even close.



That's easy to say when you're the one getting the long end of the stick here. Clearly you don't want any change, because the status quo is in your favor. Sorry, but some of us aren't in favor of lying down and accepting it.
Virtually none approved? The ATSSA GAVE the airlines 5 billion and realesed another 10 billion in loan guarantees. Over 112 airlines signed up. They also lost 25 million on ATA when they went bankrupt without paying back their loan. Sept 10 2001 wasn't a great day either, in fact this article hypothesizes that with out 9/11 and the loans provided mutliple airlines were in danger of bankruptcy. (http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2001-10-07/an-airline-bailout-with-strings-attached) So 9/11 provided the economic influx to get the airlines through a tough time. There were also people at the time calling for the gov't to stay out of the private sector and let the market correct itself. Here's another quote from an article from 2005:

"In recent years many airlines have struggled, and following 9/11 Congress passed a massive aid package aimed at rescuing the industry. After years of government aid it is appropriate to ask what has been accomplished. Was the bailout truly necessary, or did it simply ignore the economic realities of the airline industry? Has the aid merely propped up weak and inefficient firms at taxpayer expense even though they will eventually fail?"

Read more: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-futility-of-the-government-airline-bailout#ixzz2N0DfADUg


They also tried to get another 12 billion from us last year rather than charging international customers another $3.00 per ticket.
(http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jake-schmidt/will-congress-pass-the-ai_b_1817788.html)

Neither of us is getting the short end of any thing. We pay a fuel tax which funds our meager 300 hours a year of usage. The airline you work for pays a tax to use a system that directly makes them money. We make our money from the deals that are done on one end of our trips. Airlines make money(or at least try to) on every leg they use the system. Every time they fly it is an effort to make money. We could still get deals done with out the system, the airlines can't. Lets just say for the sake of argument I am getting a "better deal" what's wrong with that? If Delta pilots get paid more then United pilots, they would try to get more pay for themselves, not try to drag the pay down of the Delta pilots. This goes back to the attitude of pilots who hate other pilots solely based on there employment status. Why the hate? Why try to drag another down rather then help support?

I didn't mean an expert on the actual NextGen implementation, much of which has already been implemted. But an expert on the NAS and what I feel would take to make it better. Even though I only "operate an aviation appliance" I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, as I'm sure you do as well.


I'm I the only one that sees it this way? I'm starting to feel like I'm taking crazy pills. If there are throngs of users out there that agree with ATN and seggy, please speak up, maybe I can be swayed.
 
The airlines were directly attacked, and the government bears the responsibility for that....

Postulate: The security system would be much more robust, thorough, competent, and cost effective if the airlines ran it rather than the government.

Thoughts?
 
Virtually none approved? The ATSSA GAVE the airlines 5 billion and realesed another 10 billion in loan guarantees.

Where are on Earth are you getting your numbers? The ATSB was authorized to give $10 billion loan guarantees. They never actually did, though. In fact, they only gave a hair over $1 billion.

Over 112 airlines signed up.

Yes, and only seven were approved. America West got the biggest chunk, with the rest being given small amounts: US Airways, ATA, Aloha, Frontier, Evergreen, and World Airways. Even United and American, both carriers that lost two airplanes and all crew members onboard, received bupkis.

They also lost 25 million on ATA when they went bankrupt without paying back their loan.

Oh yeah, we're really talking big bucks here. :rolleyes:

So 9/11 provided the economic influx to get the airlines through a tough time.

Wow. Quite possibly the most offensive and insensitive thing I've ever seen posted here. How old were you at the time of 9/11? Because I can't imagine someone who was in this industry at the time saying such a thing.

Neither of us is getting the short end of any thing.

You're welcome to your opinion. You fight to protect your industry, I'll fight to protect mine.

Lets just say for the sake of argument I am getting a "better deal" what's wrong with that? If Delta pilots get paid more then United pilots, they would try to get more pay for themselves, not try to drag the pay down of the Delta pilots. This goes back to the attitude of pilots who hate other pilots solely based on there employment status. Why the hate? Why try to drag another down rather then help support?

After more than a decade of struggles, the passenger carriers are still struggling to survive. We just saw yet another bankruptcy at American, not to mention Pinnacle and Eagle. The rest of the carriers are constantly teetering on the edge of economic disaster. Allowing an unfair system to continue that benefits GA while the airlines are barely holding on is not acceptable.

I didn't mean an expert on the actual NextGen implementation, much of which has already been implemted. But an expert on the NAS and what I feel would take to make it better. Even though I only "operate an aviation appliance" I consider myself a fairly intelligent person, as I'm sure you do as well.

Oh, I'm sure you're fairly intelligent. But that has nothing to do with understanding how NextGen will improve the system and save money.
 
Where are on Earth are you getting your numbers? The ATSB was authorized to give $10 billion loan guarantees. They never actually did, though. In fact, they only gave a hair over $1 billion.



Yes, and only seven were approved. America West got the biggest chunk, with the rest being given small amounts: US Airways, ATA, Aloha, Frontier, Evergreen, and World Airways. Even United and American, both carriers that lost two airplanes and all crew members onboard, received bupkis.



Oh yeah, we're really talking big bucks here. :rolleyes:



Wow. Quite possibly the most offensive and insensitive thing I've ever seen posted here. How old were you at the time of 9/11? Because I can't imagine someone who was in this industry at the time saying such a thing.



You're welcome to your opinion. You fight to protect your industry, I'll fight to protect mine.



After more than a decade of struggles, the passenger carriers are still struggling to survive. We just saw yet another bankruptcy at American, not to mention Pinnacle and Eagle. The rest of the carriers are constantly teetering on the edge of economic disaster. Allowing an unfair system to continue that benefits GA while the airlines are barely holding on is not acceptable.



Oh, I'm sure you're fairly intelligent. But that has nothing to do with understanding how NextGen will improve the system and save money.

Wow if that's the most insensitive thing you've read, you haven't read much on here. While I have great empathy and grief for all those killed on 9/11, what I wrote was hardly insensitive, in fact I posted the link where I got the info from. It's from Business Week less than a month after 9/11. It's hardly a wiki article. I'm pretty sure that was a sensitive time, it's a lot more sensitive a time than posting it 11 years later. I was 27 at the time, after fours years of Active Duty Air Force including five months in Kuwait and my last year in South Korea, I was in my third year as a Corrections Officer. You just applying to Gulfstream around then? ( For further background, I was around 7-8 when Lorenzo boned my dad, so I've been around this pretty much my whole life) Here's a paragraph for you from the previously linked article.

http://www.businessweek.com/stories/2001-10-07/an-airline-bailout-with-strings-attached

"But for airlines, Sept. 10 wasn't such a great time, either. The emergency legislation didn't touch some fundamental problems. Airlines are a cyclical business, not unlike commodity manufacturing or commercial real estate, swinging from boom to bust. Like many old-line industries, airlines have huge fixed costs; a single airliner can cost as much as a factory, so debt levels are high. And their workforces are highly unionized and highly paid. Pilots and mechanics, especially, hold enormous clout over management because their specialized skills are tough to replace."BANKRUPTCIES." Even so, how did such a relatively brief shutdown threaten to ground the entire industry? Even before the terrorists attacked, analysts expected the airlines to lose $2 billion this year. Now, with fearful tourists and business travelers avoiding flights, that could turn into a $5 billion loss. "Even if the aid package could get them back to the status quo, the status quo is not a good place to be," says Morgan Stanley Dean Witter analyst Kevin C. Murphy. "Some carriers are mortally wounded."

Theses are called facts, not an attack on 9/11 victims, but you can continue to redirect. The other numbers came from simple google searches.
 
Wow if that's the most insensitive thing you've read, you haven't read much on here.

I've read quite a bit around here. None of it has struck me as insensitive as what you wrote. But then again, I've spent time with family members and friends of the dead crew members. I doubt they would find your statement in very good taste.

You just applying to Gulfstream around then?

No, I was already flying for GIA. I was instructing in the 1900 sim on that day, in fact.

"But for airlines, Sept. 10 wasn't such a great time, either. The emergency legislation didn't touch some fundamental problems. Airlines are a cyclical business, not unlike commodity manufacturing or commercial real estate, swinging from boom to bust. Like many old-line industries, airlines have huge fixed costs; a single airliner can cost as much as a factory, so debt levels are high. And their workforces are highly unionized and highly paid. Pilots and mechanics, especially, hold enormous clout over management because their specialized skills are tough to replace."BANKRUPTCIES." Even so, how did such a relatively brief shutdown threaten to ground the entire industry? Even before the terrorists attacked, analysts expected the airlines to lose $2 billion this year. Now, with fearful tourists and business travelers avoiding flights, that could turn into a $5 billion loss. "Even if the aid package could get them back to the status quo, the status quo is not a good place to be," says Morgan Stanley Dean Witter analyst Kevin C. Murphy. "Some carriers are mortally wounded."

Theses are called facts, not an attack on 9/11 victims, but you can continue to redirect.

I'm not taking offense at the article. I'm taking offense at your characterization that 9/11 was some wonderful opportunity for the airlines.

The other numbers came from simple google searches.

And they were incorrect.
 
"So 9/11 provided the economic influx to get the airlines through a tough time. There were also people at the time calling for the gov't to stay out of the private sector and let the market correct itself."

This is what I wrote, where does it say wonderful?, it does say tough time though. I have posted links, to support my side of the story yet you just "they're wrong" (that's called a quote, not a misrepresentation of what some one said). So show me how there wrong, links facts, some thing? Now where arguing about 9/11 instead of the real reasons. Like how you want to protect your side, your "part of the industry". Why not be supportive of all sides of the industry? I've always given you the benefit of the doubt about the whole Gulfstream thing. If I didn't have the background I did, I could see how one could make that decision. To continue to show the same train of thought that would lead to making that decision is still evident in this thread. It's not just about ALPA and 121, it's about the kid with 2.2 and the person that teaches him. It's about the corp, 135 and cargo pilots. It's about all of us trying to not be enemies in a world where they're are too many already.

Oh, I'm pretty sure the 9/11 families would be more than irritated with some one using their loved ones memories to further their own cause.
 
"So 9/11 provided the economic influx to get the airlines through a tough time.

Read that again. It's clearly insensitive. Claiming that an event that destroyed an industry and killed a bunch of crew members was somehow beneficial to the industry? Just admit that it was in poor taste so we can move on.

I have posted links

Links to where you got the fake facts about $10 billion being loaned to airlines? Nope, nowhere. Like I said, just plain wrong.

Why not be supportive of all sides of the industry?

I am. But occasionally an issue comes along where the interests of two industries are at conflict with one another. The status quo is good for your industry. It's a lead weight around the neck of my industry. Sorry, but I'm not going to be supportive of that.
 
Read that again. It's clearly insensitive. Claiming that an event that destroyed an industry and killed a bunch of crew members was somehow beneficial to the industry? Just admit that it was in poor taste so we can move on.



Links to where you got the fake facts about $10 billion being loaned to airlines? Nope, nowhere. Like I said, just plain wrong.



I am. But occasionally an issue comes along where the interests of two industries are at conflict with one another. The status quo is good for your industry. It's a lead weight around the neck of my industry. Sorry, but I'm not going to be supportive of that.
Look, if you think that's insensitive, then my apologies. I'm definitely not trying to be an a hole. I'm not the enemy, management is the enemy. I'm actually on your side, I'm still not sure why your not on ours. If you think a few corp jets and few hundred hours a year they each fly are a "lead weight around the neck of the airlines" I'm not sure what to say. In an industry full of problems that's pretty far down the list, so far I never heard it brought up at XJT in two years. Private aviation provides tens of thousands of jobs outside the cockpit, those jobs pay money, that money is used to buy tickets on your airplanes. We are not the enemy. Corp aviation buys millions of dollars worth of airline tickets a year for our dead heading crew members. We are not the enemy.

Again, if you say links I've posted are not factual, provide me with facts, not hearsay. Educate me. I am begging for a document, a link some thing. These links are what the public sees, other pilots etc. This site is about education. If there is wrong information floating around multiple, multiple trusted sources on the Internet, please provide a rebuttal to clear things up. Saying "fake links" and they "wrong" is hardly clarifying. I'm sure you'd agree.

For now though, I must appease my pregnant wife and o watch survivor. :) cheers.
 
http://www.laane.org/downloads/ShortchangedStudy.pdf

ATN, Can you take a read at page 19 of this file which addresses both the substantial cash grants given to the carriers and the loans given to carriers after 9/11. These figures came directly from DOT.

In fact, the entire study is an interesting read to say the least. Beyond the grants and loans, it details the taking over/transfer of the pension funds (PBGC), many subsidies, fuel tax exemptions, tax exempt bonds, the liabilities from the attacks assumed by the Federal government, various tax breaks, etc., granted to the airlines since 9/11.
 
Look, if you think that's insensitive, then my apologies.

Thank you. Moving on. :)

I'm actually on your side, I'm still not sure why your not on ours.

I am! But only where our interests do not conflict. When it comes to the airlines' tax burden, our interests are in conflict. I'm sorry, but I'm not ok with the product that my company produces being taxed to a greater degree than cigarettes.

so far I never heard it brought up at XJT in two years.

That's because the average line pilot doesn't deal with these issues. It's all handled for them in DC by ALPA, constantly fighting to protect our careers. The tax burden on the airlines is one of the greatest threats to our careers. So much so that ALPA actually joins forces with our arch enemy, the A4A, to fight it.

Again, if you say links I've posted are not factual, provide me with facts, not hearsay. Educate me. I am begging for a document, a link some thing. These links are what the public sees, other pilots etc. This site is about education. If there is wrong information floating around multiple, multiple trusted sources on the Internet, please provide a rebuttal to clear things up. Saying "fake links" and they "wrong" is hardly clarifying. I'm sure you'd agree.

The information on the ATSB loan guarantees is widely available. Hell, just look at the wiki page. The information there is accurate and sourced. The airlines got screwed after 9/11.
 
http://www.laane.org/downloads/ShortchangedStudy.pdf

ATN, Can you take a read at page 19 of this file which addresses both the substantial cash grants given to the carriers and the loans given to carriers after 9/11. These figures came directly from DOT.

In fact, the entire study is an interesting read to say the least. Beyond the grants and loans, it details the taking over/transfer of the pension funds (PBGC), many subsidies, fuel tax exemptions, tax exempt bonds, the liabilities from the attacks assumed by the Federal government, various tax breaks, etc., granted to the airlines since 9/11.

Aloft, the cash grants referred to by the report were direct compensation for the two days (and longer for USAirways in DCA) during which the airlines were grounded following the attacks. And while that was important, it didn't really deal with the core problem: traffic dropped off to incredibly low levels as consumer confidence in the security of air travel disappeared. There was no government help in that area, and that's what took years to recover. The immediate cash grants did nothing for it. The rest of the report deals largely with local and state subsidies, which aren't really relevant to this discussion.
 
I don't think anyone is saying that it is. I'm saying (and I believe Seggy is, as well) that the tax burden on airlines should be reduced, and the tax burden on GA should be increased. Same overall tax burden, just spread around more fairly.

You know, the PA-25 I fly has probably never used a single ATC service. It has also done most of the operations it has ever flown from things that would probably not be called "airports." Certainly not something AIP money would go towards. Yet it still contributed fuel tax money ever hour it was in the air to subsidize services used by airline operations. Fair, eh?
 
It is pertinent because it explains what P&H has been trying to say.

"First, in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, proponents maintained that the government’s grounding of all airlines was reason enough to provide some financial aid. To be sure, the forced grounding of all aircraft for several days did impose a financial cost on the carriers, and there is some justification for this argument. Second, those in favor of payments also asserted that the U.S. government had an obligation to compensate airlines for the drop in demand for air travel after 9/11. According to this argument, since the airlines could not have foreseen the attacks and the resulting drop, they should not be held financially responsible.


"The potential business risk of terrorism had been known for years. Any airline executive understands that hijackings and crashes tend to promote negative perceptions about the safety of air travel. Some might argue that the size and scope of the attacks dwarfed any previous incident and the government had to respond because the airlines could not possibly have been prepared for such an event. Yes, but one must also ask why the government, meaning the taxpayers, should be liable. Are taxpayers to be liable for all business risks that any firm might suffer in another massive terrorist attack?

In reality, the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) order came after many airlines, American and United Airlines, for example, had voluntarily halted their own operations. It is likely that the other airlines would have followed suit given the events of that day. Left to their own devices, it is not clear how long they would have chosen to ground their own planes.

However, even supposing that they would have chosen to continue to operate, the total cost to the airlines was much smaller than what the government provided. John Samples of Cato’s Center for representative Government calculated a more realistic figure for the total losses incurred by the airline industry. In fact, Samples’s source for this number was the airline executives themselves. They estimated the losses from the four-day grounding at $300 million per day, or $1.2 billion. This amount, though certainly significant, is far less than the $15 billion in direct aid and loan guarantees.

Even before the 9/11 tragedy financial analysts had predicted a loss of $2.5 billion for the airline industry for 2001 because of the recession the nation was experiencing.

This problem was magnified, James Gattuso of the Heritage Foundation noted, by the stiff competition old-line carriers were facing from new low-cost entrants such as JetBlue and established discounters like Southwest Airlines, which had steadily gained market share for years. In their struggle to adapt to changing market circumstances, US Airways and the others were forced to reduce costs, renegotiate with their unions, and improve efficiency, or suffer additional losses in passenger traffic."


http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-futility-of-the-government-airline-bailout#axzz2N3ge0DoF

Another interesting read and addresses also, US Airways, which you mentioned above.
 
That's because the average line pilot doesn't deal with these issues. It's all handled for them in DC by ALPA, constantly fighting to protect our careers. The tax burden on the airlines is one of the greatest threats to our careers. So much so that ALPA actually joins forces with our arch enemy, the A4A, to fight it.
That last sentence makes my skin crawl. It is a necessary evil but I still don't have to like it. :)
 
It is pertinent because it explains what P&H has been trying to say.

"First, in the wake of the 9/11 attacks, proponents maintained that the government’s grounding of all airlines was reason enough to provide some financial aid. To be sure, the forced grounding of all aircraft for several days did impose a financial cost on the carriers, and there is some justification for this argument. Second, those in favor of payments also asserted that the U.S. government had an obligation to compensate airlines for the drop in demand for air travel after 9/11. According to this argument, since the airlines could not have foreseen the attacks and the resulting drop, they should not be held financially responsible.


"The potential business risk of terrorism had been known for years. Any airline executive understands that hijackings and crashes tend to promote negative perceptions about the safety of air travel. Some might argue that the size and scope of the attacks dwarfed any previous incident and the government had to respond because the airlines could not possibly have been prepared for such an event. Yes, but one must also ask why the government, meaning the taxpayers, should be liable. Are taxpayers to be liable for all business risks that any firm might suffer in another massive terrorist attack?

In reality, the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) order came after many airlines, American and United Airlines, for example, had voluntarily halted their own operations. It is likely that the other airlines would have followed suit given the events of that day. Left to their own devices, it is not clear how long they would have chosen to ground their own planes.

However, even supposing that they would have chosen to continue to operate, the total cost to the airlines was much smaller than what the government provided. John Samples of Cato’s Center for representative Government calculated a more realistic figure for the total losses incurred by the airline industry. In fact, Samples’s source for this number was the airline executives themselves. They estimated the losses from the four-day grounding at $300 million per day, or $1.2 billion. This amount, though certainly significant, is far less than the $15 billion in direct aid and loan guarantees.

Even before the 9/11 tragedy financial analysts had predicted a loss of $2.5 billion for the airline industry for 2001 because of the recession the nation was experiencing.

This problem was magnified, James Gattuso of the Heritage Foundation noted, by the stiff competition old-line carriers were facing from new low-cost entrants such as JetBlue and established discounters like Southwest Airlines, which had steadily gained market share for years. In their struggle to adapt to changing market circumstances, US Airways and the others were forced to reduce costs, renegotiate with their unions, and improve efficiency, or suffer additional losses in passenger traffic."


http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-futility-of-the-government-airline-bailout#axzz2N3ge0DoF

Another interesting read and addresses also, US Airways, which you mentioned above.
A Life Aloft I already posted that last link, it's "wrong" remember? :) Lets not get lost in facts and truth when we have rumor and innuendo.
 
According to this argument, since the airlines could not have foreseen the attacks and the resulting drop, they should not be held financially responsible.

That's not really the argument at all, in fact. The argument is that the government was directly responsible for lax security and ignoring intelligence information, and is therefore responsible for the loss of revenue. The airlines not being able to predict it has never been an argument that I've heard anyone make.

However, even supposing that they would have chosen to continue to operate, the total cost to the airlines was much smaller than what the government provided. John Samples of Cato’s Center for representative Government calculated a more realistic figure for the total losses incurred by the airline industry. In fact, Samples’s source for this number was the airline executives themselves. They estimated the losses from the four-day grounding at $300 million per day, or $1.2 billion. This amount, though certainly significant, is far less than the $15 billion in direct aid and loan guarantees.

Again, $15 billion is a phantom number!!! Apportioning money is not the same thing as distributing it. Congress approved up to $10 billion in loan guarantees, and $5 billions was direct compensation for the grounding. But only $1 billion of the money set aside for loan guarantees was ever actually loaned, almost all of it was paid back in short order, and the airlines actually attacked were denied their loan requests!
 
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