Save the contract towers

amorris311 said:
You're on your ass if you think that will solve the problem. GA is getting worse and worse year over year. It is cost prohibitive to rent a plane and fly around for a couple of hours now. What do you think adding user fees will do? I know you fly a big shiny airplane but remember where you came from. There is a reason there are not hoards of people learning how to fly.
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He's just pulling up the ladder now that he is in that shinny jet. Disappointed he also didn't honor his first training, but that is another story.
 
I understand that some of you are fine with closing towers. And I agree some might have been a little of a waste of money. But I sit in a class with 40+ students every Tuesday and Thursday going through the CTI program and we are saddened by the news. Careers that we want are being tossed. And all the contract tower guys will be filling all the openings at other towers and centers for a long time. Some are nearing the cut off age and this is basically ending it for them. So instead of kicking us to the curb so quickly just know that many future and current careers are going away. And I know many of you airline guys have gone through the same type of situation so you know what current and future controllers are going through. Carry on.
 
smack300 said:
I understand that some of you are fine with closing towers. And I agree some might have been a little of a waste of money. But I sit in a class with 40+ students every Tuesday and Thursday going through the CTI program and we are saddened by the news. Careers that we want are being tossed. And all the contract tower guys will be filling all the openings at other towers and centers for a long time. Some are nearing the cut off age and this is basically ending it for them. So instead of kicking us to the curb so quickly just know that many future and current careers are going away. And I know many of you airline guys have gone through the same type of situation so you know what current and future controllers are going through. Carry on.
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I bet it is safe to say a good majority of the staffing at contract towers falls into these two categories. First is retired faa controllers. Second is retired military controllers or military controllers that bailed and were over the faa cutoff. Outside of that not too manu would work for a contract tower that at one point could of made bigger bucks in the faa.

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
 
smack300 said:
I understand that some of you are fine with closing towers. And I agree some might have been a little of a waste of money. But I sit in a class with 40+ students every Tuesday and Thursday going through the CTI program and we are saddened by the news. Careers that we want are being tossed. And all the contract tower guys will be filling all the openings at other towers and centers for a long time. Some are nearing the cut off age and this is basically ending it for them. So instead of kicking us to the curb so quickly just know that many future and current careers are going away. And I know many of you airline guys have gone through the same type of situation so you know what current and future controllers are going through. Carry on.
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I am sympathetic that people will see a necessary goal shifting and that their dream, perhaps, is coming to an end. That said, should we still light the streets with Kerosene as opposed to electricity? Lots of blacksmiths took it in the shorts when cars came around. I say this not to be crass but to say that "These aren't the first people displaced by something out of their control, nor will they be the last". The idea of airports having towers that do not really need them is one part of the problem with the bloat in government. As much as I do not want people to have pain inflicted, I also do not want to spend money on things that are not necessary simply to keep people employed. Ultimately that's an unsustainable model and ultimately that is much worse for the people that are employed in them. I know that's hard to believe now, but I believe that to be true - bad news isn't like wine, it doesn't improve with age.
 
Roger Roger said:
Or, kill towers that see stupidly low numbers of operations. I'm sure all of us have seen them. I can think of two off the top of my head-CXO and STC. Oh yeah, GVT and probably TXK...
I don't think AOPA would complain about keeping the airports open and changing them over to CTAF only.
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IFP also fit's the crazy slow catagory.
 
Seggy said:
True, but the AOPA would have been crying about that. Bottom line, user fees, or increased spending.
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How will user fees relieve the gridlock in our government? THAT is what has caused this mess. Quit pointing fingers at one side. BOTH SIDES are at fault here for not willing to compromise.

Take your user fee's diatribe elsewhere. It's not doing anything but the same that has happened in our government. It creates disdainand turmoil.
 
amorris311 said:
You're on your ass
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< redacted >

GA is getting worse and worse year over year. It is cost prohibitive to rent a plane and fly around for a couple of hours now.
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And whose fault is that? So much good the AOPA has done over the years to help the small guys out. They are useless.

What do you think adding user fees will do?
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To be clear, the guys who tool around in a Piper Cub or a Cessna 172 in flight training should not see a huge operating cost, but there should be a fee to file IFR to use the National Airspace System/Service depending on the size. A small piston or light twin, the cost should be in the $5.00 to $7.00 range. You fly a corporate jet, should be in the $75.00 to $100.00 range. That cost will only fractionally offset the costs that the airlines pay, but it is a start.

I know you fly a big shiny airplane but remember where you came from.
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So do you. Didn't you tell me that your FMS is the 'most advanced' one out there???
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
He's just pulling up the ladder now that he is in that shinny jet. Disappointed he also didn't honor his first training, but that is another story.
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No I am not forgetting where I came from. Just being realistic and calling it as it is.
 
mshunter said:
How will user fees relieve the gridlock in our government? THAT is what has caused this mess. Quit pointing fingers at one side. BOTH SIDES are at fault here for not willing to compromise.

Take your user fee's diatribe elsewhere. It's not doing anything but the same that has happened in our government. It creates disdainand turmoil.
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No the Republicans caused this mess.
 
Seggy said:
No the Republicans caused this mess.
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And this is the reason why our country is so messed up. Keep pointing your finger, and see what gets fixed. Rather than being angry about the problem, why don't you come up with a solution, or keep quiet.

It's amazing how so many are so quick to point the finger, yet afraid to look in the mirrior. I could go through our list of "leaders" other than the president, on both sides, and find things about all of them that they do that aren't good for this country. I have the opportunity to rub elbows and go to dinners with politicians in my state, and listen to what is said after a few glasses of wine, and realize what is wrong with politics. County controlers, state senators, etc. After listening to what happens behind closed doors, needless to say, I am disgusted. If you think that this is Red or Blue alone that caused this mess, you are a big part of the problem.
 
Seggy said:
To be clear, the guys who tool around in a Piper Cub or a Cessna 172 in flight training should not see a huge operating cost, but there should be a fee to file IFR to use the National Airspace System/Service depending on the size. A small piston or light twin, the cost should be in the $5.00 to $7.00 range. You fly a corporate jet, should be in the $75.00 to $100.00 range. That cost will only fractionally offset the costs that the airlines pay, but it is a start.
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Sweet. Lets also do the same thing for 121 then. Imagine how much it would cost for a 73, or a A380 to file an IFR flight plan.

"The Velo is strong with this one master."
 
mshunter said:
And this is the reason why our country is so messed up. Keep pointing your finger, and see what gets fixed. Rather than being angry about the problem, why don't you come up with a solution, or keep quiet.
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That is not actually the sole reason why this country is messed up (if indeed it is as messed up as folks would say it is—the problem is long-term, not short-term, but all the butthurt and focus is short-term), and in The Wookie's defense, despite being completely off base when it comes to user fees, he is barking up the correct Constitutional and political trees. The President is failing to lead, while I would say that the House GOP is being their normal, deplorably intransigent selves.
 
Seggy why don't we start with having the airlines pay the same fuel tax rates everyone else pays. I bet that would be a big step in the right direction. The user fee for general aviation is a losing battle. Put a fee for filing IFR or talking to controllers and GA pilots for the most part just won't. I know I'll go from having instrument students talking to controllers to me just simulating it. It won't raise the money they predict because usage will go way down. Fuel taxes are a better way because that way everyone is paying every flight. We just need to make airlines pay the same as everyone else. No more breaks for them
 
Inverted25 said:
Seggy why don't we start with having the airlines pay the same fuel tax rates everyone else pays. I bet that would be a big step in the right direction. The user fee for general aviation is a losing battle. Put a fee for filing IFR or talking to controllers and GA pilots for the most part just won't. I know I'll go from having instrument students talking to controllers to me just simulating it. It won't raise the money they predict because usage will go way down. Fuel taxes are a better way because that way everyone is paying every flight. We just need to make airlines pay the same as everyone else. No more breaks for them
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Same here, my workload as a CFI will more than disappear. User Fees will decimate the student pilot population. Why is there so much flight training happening in Europe? Oh wait...
 
WacoFan said:
I am sympathetic that people will see a necessary goal shifting and that their dream, perhaps, is coming to an end. That said, should we still light the streets with Kerosene as opposed to electricity? Lots of blacksmiths took it in the shorts when cars came around. I say this not to be crass but to say that "These aren't the first people displaced by something out of their control, nor will they be the last". The idea of airports having towers that do not really need them is one part of the problem with the bloat in government. As much as I do not want people to have pain inflicted, I also do not want to spend money on things that are not necessary simply to keep people employed. Ultimately that's an unsustainable model and ultimately that is much worse for the people that are employed in them. I know that's hard to believe now, but I believe that to be true - bad news isn't like wine, it doesn't improve with age.
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Listen to this fellow; he's making sense. It's called creative destruction, and it happens in every industry and profession.
 
BWER said:
I bet it is safe to say a good majority of the staffing at contract towers falls into these two categories. First is retired faa controllers. Second is retired military controllers or military controllers that bailed and were over the faa cutoff. Outside of that not too manu would work for a contract tower that at one point could of made bigger bucks in the faa.

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
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And it's because of those "bigger bucks" FAA/government positions that our economy is in a shambles. Government salaries are not driven by market forces; therefore, there is no incentive to keep costs in check. The government budgeting process always assumes an increase over the previous year. That is not sustainable; never has been.

You've heard the phrase "it can't go on forever?" Congratulations friends, we've reached the end of the line.
 
Inverted25 said:
Seggy why don't we start with having the airlines pay the same fuel tax rates everyone else pays. I bet that would be a big step in the right direction. The user fee for general aviation is a losing battle. Put a fee for filing IFR or talking to controllers and GA pilots for the most part just won't. I know I'll go from having instrument students talking to controllers to me just simulating it. It won't raise the money they predict because usage will go way down. Fuel taxes are a better way because that way everyone is paying every flight. We just need to make airlines pay the same as everyone else. No more breaks for them
Click to expand...

Have you ever noticed that the argument of a level playing field never involves reducing taxes/fees to the lowest common level? Nope, it's always "we must raise taxes on such and such."
 
smack300 said:
I understand that some of you are fine with closing towers. And I agree some might have been a little of a waste of money. But I sit in a class with 40+ students every Tuesday and Thursday going through the CTI program and we are saddened by the news. Careers that we want are being tossed. And all the contract tower guys will be filling all the openings at other towers and centers for a long time. Some are nearing the cut off age and this is basically ending it for them. So instead of kicking us to the curb so quickly just know that many future and current careers are going away. And I know many of you airline guys have gone through the same type of situation so you know what current and future controllers are going through. Carry on.
Click to expand...
This is a good point that I never thought of, and am sympathetic. But many airports simply don't need towers, and I'm sure many airports need towers that don't have them. It also saddens me to see how many 121 guys have no desire to fly GA anymore. I hope I never turn into that.
 
amorris311 said:
You're on your ass if you think that will solve the problem. GA is getting worse and worse year over year. It is cost prohibitive to rent a plane and fly around for a couple of hours now. What do you think adding user fees will do? I know you fly a big shiny airplane but remember where you came from. There is a reason there are not hoards of people learning how to fly.
Click to expand...
Fuel is the biggest problem for the cost of GA for most. I filled up Saturday in Houston for around $5.15. It costs me around $40-50 an hour in gas alone to fly a super cub. What makes me even more mad is it's always a quarter or two cheaper during the week!
 
Back when I learned how to fly, we didn't have towers (because it was the middle of nowhere), we didn't have radar (because it was the middle of nowhere), we didn't have GPS (because it was 1998 and my flight school was broke), and you know what else we didn't have? Mid air collisions! Because we used our Mk. I eyeballs to see and avoid other traffic. A tower outside of Class C airspace is generally a waste of time.

MikeD
 
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