Hai I would liek to offer my pilit sirvices 4 free

A brand new $300,000 Cessna 172 kinda fits into both of those does it not? How about the popular Piper Seneca at a used price of $750,000+? A lot of people would say $300k and $750k is a bunch of money, and I bet a majority of those same people would say both of those aircraft are "small".

OWNED.

Just kidding. I just felt like being a jerk. :)

I agree here. Whether it's 300,000 or 3,000,000, how much will a 5k ferry really cost you? If it hurts to ferry for that price, you're gonna have a bad time with the aircraft...

Now a 25,000 bird well, 5k is probably more than the prebuy and annual put together so I can see the owners thoughts there...


With that said, I wouldn't do it for free. Spent way too much time and money to be doing it for free. Not to mention as an immigrant, the last thing I want to be, is accused of stealing a job :D
Sent from my Nexus 4
 
Work for nothing? People DO that?

My pro-bono cup ran out in the Navy.

I've had nothing, and I've had something. Only one way to have something, and that's by giving away nothing.
 
Work for nothing? People DO that?

My pro-bono cup ran out in the Navy.

I've had nothing, and I've had something. Only one way to have something, and that's by giving away nothing.


Regional pilots used to PAY to fly for most regionals back in the 90s. If you see a "senior" or "lifer" RJ pilot, chances are he PFT'd.
 
The "ad" has been removed...

I'd have scrawled over it something along the lines of "PROFESSIONAL PILOTS WHO WORK FOR FREE CHEAPEN THE ENTIRE PROFESSION" just so he could catch sight of it and possibly learn from it instead of just thinking "Oh, I need to put up another sign."
 
I agree with everyone decrying working for free, but I have to say I'm not surprised.

Behind this person's offer to work for free is a value/reward calculation largely unique to the flying profession. Most people won't do their jobs for free, because their job is a drag and no fun. Flying, however, is something many people want to do so much they will pay for it. Therefore, for many, it is a net positive transaction to fly for free because the activity itself carries sufficient reward.

I left the flying industry largely because I didn't want to work against this powerful force when supporting my family was on the line.

For those of you making a living as a professional pilot, I see 2 options to fight against this:
1) Make it socially or otherwise unacceptable to work for less than a certain standard. This is the idea behind unions. It is also the idea behind intimidation (as has been suggested in this thread).
2) Improve the value of what you have to offer so that you are no longer competing with most pilots. This is difficult, as it is hard to say what distinguishes one pilot from the next, and many employers don't really care as long as you meet a certain minimum standard. (Hence the prevalence of seniority systems and connections-based hiring.) However, as jrh has been arguing, it can be done, especially in instruction.

I wish you all success.

P.S. I'm in my 2nd year of med school. We are told early on that money is the wrong reason to go into medicine. The truth is that if we found out tomorrow that Obama had set a cap on physician pay at $50,000/year, 99% of us would be gone tomorrow. The reason we are being told not to do it for the money, when money is in reality a large part of our motivation, is to set a professional tone that works against the temptation of doctors to put their financial interests ahead of their patients.

Perhaps flying needs the opposite approach. Very few people go into flying for the money (and those that do probably leave pretty quickly). People become pilots because they are passionate about flying. Here, unlike physicians, the temptation is to put excitement for flying ahead of money. What if, from a student pilot's first exposure to the profession, they were consistently told not to go into aviation just because of passion? Rather, that it is a profession that requires fair compensation and they should be prepared to stand down if the money is not right. Maybe this could make some small difference?
 
z987k said:
It's not the owner/boss that is the scumbag. It's the pilot willing to do it.

If I were a business owner, aviation or not, I'd exploit every moron out there that will work for me for free and not lose a second of sleep over it.

I've been flying for my company for years....free. Is that wrong?
 
Just something positive to add.
Where I instruct we just had our monthly instructor meeting and they spend about 10 minutes explaining that we were required to charge for our instruction because it undercuts our fellow co workers. I was pretty happy with it, but there was an instructor there who would hardly every charge in an effort to get more students. Hopefully he will change his ways.
 
...we were required to charge for our instruction because it undercuts our fellow co workers.

To add to this, it also undercuts the flight school.

You know that part of the instruction fee the flight school takes? Like, if the student pays $45/hour and the instructor gets paid $25/hour...that $20/hour for the school is what helps pay for office space, telephone lines, utilities, web sites, marketing budgets, insurance, a front desk receptionist, and on and on and on.

Every time a flight instructor at a flight school intentionally undercharges a client, they're stealing from the flight school. They might think they're only giving away their own pay, or screwing over the greedy flight school owner, but the reality is they're giving away resources that aren't theirs to give away. Biting the hand that feeds them, in a way.

Unfortunately most brand new CFIs who are still in college don't have the foresight or life experience to see this. Nothing's truly free.
 
What if, from a student pilot's first exposure to the profession, they were consistently told not to go into aviation just because of passion? Rather, that it is a profession that requires fair compensation and they should be prepared to stand down if the money is not right. Maybe this could make some small difference?

I think this is an excellent idea, particularly inside of collegiate aviation programs, which is where it seems like most pro pilots are coming from these days.

It should be taught in a "Pilot Lifestyles 101" course, which meets at 5:30 AM, Friday-Monday, subject to change with no advance notice from the instructor, and all students need to show up in uniform.

But for real, there really does need to be more education about what the day to day lives of pilots are like, just as how there ought to be a bigger emphasis on how to plan for retirement and cook healthy meals. Basic life skills get skipped too often.
 
Just something positive to add.
Where I instruct we just had our monthly instructor meeting and they spend about 10 minutes explaining that we were required to charge for our instruction because it undercuts our fellow co workers. I was pretty happy with it, but there was an instructor there who would hardly every charge in an effort to get more students. Hopefully he will change his ways.
There are a lot flight schools where that happens. I know, I've been there. Don't worry though, when that instructor gets a different job they'll be pontificating about fair pay and holding the line.:rolleyes:
 
Those who work for free annoy those of us who work for a number that approximates free. ;) :D

"But meh."

This point, I fear, will go unmarked... but it's really important.

How defensive can you be when you're already working for peanuts? I don't mean to be directly offensive, but if you actually take pride in your work to the point where you're offended by people working for free, shouldn't you also refuse to work for an insultingly-low wage?

I mean, I wouldn't ever be That Guy, and I have no interest in working for free ... when it directly or monetarily benefits the person for whom I'm working. HOWEVER, in my view accepting an incredibly low wage for a profession makes you just as culpable as someone doing it for free. Both parties lower the bar.

Just my opinion, though. Enjoy~!

~.^

~Foxy
 
This point, I fear, will go unmarked... but it's really important.

How defensive can you be when you're already working for peanuts? I don't mean to be directly offensive, but if you actually take pride in your work to the point where you're offended by people working for free, shouldn't you also refuse to work for an insultingly-low wage?

I mean, I wouldn't ever be That Guy, and I have no interest in working for free ... when it directly or monetarily benefits the person for whom I'm working. HOWEVER, in my view accepting an incredibly low wage for a profession makes you just as culpable as someone doing it for free. Both parties lower the bar.

Just my opinion, though. Enjoy~!

~.^

~Foxy

Interesting point, but when your completion and tons of other pilots are willing to do the same job for free, near free, or even pay for a job, how can you set the bar really high?

Like jrh says, make your service better. Which is true. Buuuut, there are a lot of surprisingly cheap bastages out there looking to save a buck any way they can. Especially given this economy.
 
This point, I fear, will go unmarked... but it's really important.

How defensive can you be when you're already working for peanuts? I don't mean to be directly offensive, but if you actually take pride in your work to the point where you're offended by people working for free, shouldn't you also refuse to work for an insultingly-low wage?

I mean, I wouldn't ever be That Guy, and I have no interest in working for free ... when it directly or monetarily benefits the person for whom I'm working. HOWEVER, in my view accepting an incredibly low wage for a profession makes you just as culpable as someone doing it for free. Both parties lower the bar.

Just my opinion, though. Enjoy~!

~.^

~Foxy
I wouldn't call my paycheck insulting, but I'm not really sure what I would call it. As a hostage of the Great Rat Race (the economy), I am largely satisfied with being employed.

Aw hell with it. Time for beer.
 
I think if you're going to set a bar higher for anything you can't take the people who will do it for free into account. Pretend like they don't exist.
 
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