UAL Pilots SFO-LAX

Bernoulli Fan

Bernoulli Fan

Controller
Any UAL pilots on here that have been flying south out of SFO over LAX since they upnumbered the OFFSHORE SID from 5 to 6? Over the past week or so, several UAL aircraft have flown MCKEY MQO RZS LAX or MCKEY RZS LAX instead of MCKEY LAX as indicated on the flight strip. The area has started questioning whether it is an FMS programming issue.
 
I just downloaded the SID at airnav, and it doesn't show a transition MCKEY LAX. You'd have to go over MQO or RZS to stay on the SID routings to LAX. Just my opinion based on your post. Perhaps there is more to the story.
 
How was it depected on the strips before? Almost sounds like an adaptation issue to me.

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DE727UPS said:
I just downloaded the SID at airnav, and it doesn't show a transition MCKEY LAX. You'd have to go over MQO or RZS to stay on the SID routings to LAX. Just my opinion based on your post. Perhaps there is more to the story.
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"OFFSH6.MCKEY" should be a valid way of filing/clearing that SID. It doesn't continue to any of the other transitions, the SID is over with at MCKEY and then the clearance should be MCKEY direct LAX. "OFFSH6.MCKEY" appears in the title of the SID plates.
 
FM_Weasel said:
"OFFSH6.MCKEY" should be a valid way of filing/clearing that SID. It doesn't continue to any of the other transitions, the SID is over with at MCKEY and then the clearance should be MCKEY direct LAX. "OFFSH6.MCKEY" appears in the title of the SID plates.
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Agreed. It sounds like they're programming the RZS or MQO transitions in the FMS instead of terminating the SID at MCKEY, then programming a new direct leg from MCKEY to LAX. I'm curious if you guys have had the same problem with the OAK-SAN guys that take the COAST5.MCKEY SID. It's essentially the same SID, with an initial vector required to merge the OAK departures in with the OFFSH6 guys.
 
DE727UPS said:
I just downloaded the SID at airnav, and it doesn't show a transition MCKEY LAX. You'd have to go over MQO or RZS to stay on the SID routings to LAX. Just my opinion based on your post. Perhaps there is more to the story.
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That's correct. Before it gets to us, however, someone (probably ZOA) gives MCKEY..LAX. That is what the strip says when we take the handoff.

BWER said:
How was it depected on the strips before? Almost sounds like an adaptation issue to me.
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When the OFFSHORE was 5, it was the same routing. MCKEY..LAX was on the strip when we took the handoff.

BWER said:
Are you in a center? Or approach?
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Center.

inigo88 said:
Agreed. It sounds like they're programming the RZS or MQO transitions in the FMS instead of terminating the SID at MCKEY, then programming a new direct leg from MCKEY to LAX. I'm curious if you guys have had the same problem with the OAK-SAN guys that take the COAST5.MCKEY SID. It's essentially the same SID, with an initial vector required to merge the OAK departures in with the OFFSH6 guys.
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We're trying to figure out if the pilots are programming it incorrectly, or the FMS won't accept the MCKEY..LAX clearance for some reason. We have not had any issues on the COAST that I'm aware of.
 
Two things....

1) The perf route to LAX is via the PORTE4 to AVE. What is up with this OFFSH stuff?
2) The OFFSH6.SXC can cause FMC timeout/failure issues with non-PIP/PIP FMC's sUA 757 aircraft have if going to the SoCal area AFAIK.
(I personally don't work for UA but have heard of this issue before because of the older FMC software the sUA aircraft have).

So if these are 757s with N5XXUA registrations, that is probably your answer right there I would guess, maybe? Like I said though, just a guess based on what I've heard before.
 
I'm sure out of SFO they get their initial clearance from digital PDC's. Would be interesting to see what routing the pilot is getting. It's pretty rare to get a departure procedure without a transition but I can't see just randomly putting a transition in if it's not part of your routing. Also, even when SID's are already in the FMC, you have to go through and verify that each waypoint in the box concurs with your clearance. If I fly this week, I'll try to take a look at our FMC data base. Not sure we'd even have SFO since we don't go there.
 
g767 said:
Two things....

1) The perf route to LAX is via the PORTE4 to AVE. What is up with this OFFSH stuff?
2) The OFFSH6.SXC can cause FMC timeout/failure issues with non-PIP/PIP FMC's sUA 757 aircraft have if going to the SoCal area AFAIK.
(I personally don't work for UA but have heard of this issue before because of the older FMC software the sUA aircraft have).

So if these are 757s with N5XXUA registrations, that is probably your answer right there I would guess, maybe? Like I said though, just a guess based on what I've heard before.
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1) I'm talking about aircraft bound for SAN or Mexico routed over LAX. I realized the thread title is misleading after I posted, but I couldn't edit it. I tried to make it clear in the OP.
2) It actually has been A320s the last few times. Not sure if that has been every time.

DE727UPS said:
I'm sure out of SFO they get their initial clearance from digital PDC's. Would be interesting to see what routing the pilot is getting. It's pretty rare to get a departure procedure without a transition but I can't see just randomly putting a transition in if it's not part of your routing. Also, even when SID's are already in the FMC, you have to go through and verify that each waypoint in the box concurs with your clearance. If I fly this week, I'll try to take a look at our FMC data base. Not sure we'd even have SFO since we don't go there.
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I just asked a UAL pilot if they got MCKEY..LAX in their clearance on the ground or from ZOA and they said on the ground via PDC.
 
g767 said:
1) The perf route to LAX is via the PORTE4 to AVE. What is up with this OFFSH stuff?
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The OFFSH6 is the SID used for SFO-SAN. The preferred route is OFFSH6 MCKEY LAX BAYVU3 (RNAV STAR) or HUBRD1 (Non RNAV)/

Here are some examples:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL1754
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA415
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL1636/history/20130204/1901Z/KSFO/KSAN
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/VRD956

Bernoulli said "south of SFO over LAX," which these all overfly the LAX VOR on the way to SAN. It looks like UAL runs 737s on this route and not 757s. This routing has been around for a long time (years) and the only thing that's changed recently is the OFFSH SID going from 5 to 6, so I wonder if an FMC bug was introduced during that revision?

EDIT: He beat me to it.
 
O OK I got ya. Actually I've seen MCKEY..LAX on the SFO-SAN route for years too. It is the perf route in the database.

I thought you meant KSFO-KLAX based on the title. Regardless, the OFFSH6.SXC to SoCal (SNA, LAX) causes FMC failures if fully LineSelected in sUA 757s as I know it. Just figured it might be related to this topic based on the title.
 
One of the flightaware UA flights showed this as a routing "OFFSH6 MCKEY LAX HUBRD1". If that's what the pilots are getting on their PDC's, then there is no reason I can see for heading off towards MQO or RZS. In a 75, you would load the SID in the box that would end at MCKEY. Then, load the arrival, which would start at LAX. There would be what the FMC calls a route discontinuity between MCKEY and LAX but you would close that up with a couple of keystrokes. If you didn't, there wouldn't be a magenta line between MCKEY and LAX on your map display and pilots ALWAYS notice when the magenta line goes away. That's all we do is follow the magenta line around...
 
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