9E TA Reached

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I most certianly am OG Colgan. I was also hired with well over ATP mins and an ATP having been a pilot in the Air Force. We had our little niche of the industry and we were fine at it. Hard to argue we had any impact in dragging down the industry since we didn't fly any jettttttsssss. And if you wanna argue that about the Q. Well we had a union drive and voted in ALPA. So your pot/kettle argument really has no merit whatseover. Nice try though.

As to the rest, none of that other set of hiring mins has anything to do with flying hours or experience whatsoever. Great that a bridge program meant you might make it through RJ training so airlines lowered mins to get warm bodies in the seat. It's a shame that has zero correlation with whether or not someone has any real flying experience and/or are actually a competent pilot or asset to the crew. You can teach a monkey to fly a V1 cut You can't teach a monkey not to take a plane up to 410 and flame out or how to not spin a plane at 2000 feet over a house.

Why would you go to Colgan with that kind of experience? Why not the LCCs? In any case, just because you didn't fly jets doesn't mean you didn't have any impact bringing the industry down. In fact, Phil T bought your airline, a non-union airline, for the sole purpose of growing you guys with Q400s while shrinking a union-ALPA Pinnacle (downgrading, displacements). Did you already forget Pinnacle was still working under a 1999 contract that was amendable in May 2005? Buying Colgan and giving them Qs for a slap in the face to every Pinnacle pilot, and the same money was used to do this that came from the NWA bankruptcy convertible note. Basically, money earned by Pinnacle pilots moving Piinnacle planes. This continued while Colgan continued to upgrade guys at 1,500 hrs in Saabs. You had a union drive later, when really, it was already too late. The damage was done. The intent of Phil T worked. You are truly blind if you don't see that. So yes, pot meet kettle. And why would you take a job at pre-ALPA Colgan in the first place? That's about the lowest of the low that you could go to.

As a Colgan pilot, you have zero grounds to make any argument on hiring standards. Just look at your colleagues in "Flying Cheap" talking about being hired with 300-500 hrs and then upgrading at 1,500 hrs on a Saab. You are correct, you can teach a monkey to do a V1 cut. Except some fail even at that, and then lie about it on applications. And then because the airline they go to are so bottom barrel, they didn't even attempt to really find out the 'facts' stated on an application were true or not. Anyway, you are crazy if you think non-union Colgan wasn't used as a whipsaw against union Pinnacle.

 

[meyers9163]

I hear bobduck is a pain in the arse to fly with........

 

[Rocketman99]

(Lots of stuff)

I was hired at Colgan a few years before we were destroyed by Pinnacle in their failed attempt to use us to whipsaw. Didn't have the requisite time for minimums to go to the majors who were hiring then and there are no shortcut bs "bridge courses" for real jobs. I had no desire to go to LCCs at that time. Still really don't, but doesn't seem like there are many other options these days sitting on this sinking ship. I'm done with the rest of the crap, it's just not worth my time.

 

[Stone Cold]

I read most of this thread, and then the circle jerk started...

 

[lostplanetairman]

As for first year pay at regionals (or even majors/LCCs), it is usually sold out by the union to get advantages on the upper end. Perfect example is Spirit's recent new contract, where first year pay was sold out from $44/hr to $38.50/hr for the duration of the contract.

Sorry, it was $40/hr in the old contract. So, new hires lost $1.50/hr and the 2-6 year FO's got a larger increase. The ultimate walkout that caused the strike after 4 AM was over the FO pay, so don't use Spirit as an example of senior pilots selling out the young.

 

[kellwolf]

First part true, but only for Pinnacle. As I wrote, the courses were online on nwairlink career website in the fall of 2006.

Why only for Pinnacle. As I said, I interviewed in EARLY 2006. What you're talking about was Fall of 2006, several months later.

Aren't you this same kellwolf, the one who nearly did the Mesa's PACE program in 2004 or early 2005:

Yep, that was me. And I'll admit I almost did it. I had a buddy that did that program, too. And I'm glad I didn't do it. The more I thought about it, the more I realized it was money for nothing to fly for a carrier that paid peanut wages with crap work rules. If you'll keep reading my posts, you'll see that hasn't changed in 7+ years. Paying money for nothing (you can rationalize it by calling it "opportunity costs" if you want) is bad for anything, not just aviation. I'm not judging you for doing an RJ program. I'm judging you for being hypocritcal on the job front. You took a short cut, then talk about how people "fresh from the fight for a job" should be the first in line. THAT, to me, is hypocritical. I don't give a damn if you did an RJ course. It's the holier than thou attitude that tends to exude from your posts on here and pretty much every other forum you post on.

 

[kellwolf]

I read most of this thread, and then the circle jerk started...

Yeah, sorry guys. A couple of nerves got hit and I was bored, I guess. Back to regular scheduled programming.....

 

[Cruise]

Hopefully that isnt directed at me but if it is I'm pretty sure I said I was not one of those that thought that... Just stating what seems like everyone feels these days. I openly admit I support ALPA, I have been around it my whole life and know how important they are. With that said there is always room for improvement and before you go there, yes, I am planning on contributing. Not that I have a whole lot to add but atleast Ill try.

Nope, wasn't directed at you. Simply directed at those that say ALPA does nothing for the industry, or think they've got a better shot at going it alone.

 

[amorris311]

Sorry, it was $40/hr in the old contract. So, new hires lost $1.50/hr and the 2-6 year FO's got a larger increase. The ultimate walkout that caused the strike after 4 AM was over the FO pay, so don't use Spirit as an example of senior pilots selling out the young.

Seggy and I were both there in the strike center when that went down. I remember talking to a pretty junior FO who was commenting on the exact thing you are talking about. So I agree, do. To compare the two carriers.

 

[Gonzo]

Why are you still at Eagle? You have been talking about leaving for over three years, yet you are still here. Now onto your post.

..and now that our crap contract was approved, the implementation schedule of items is just spectacular. The cuts start immediately, Jan 2013.. while one thing the pilots actually wanted, and was touted highly by ALPA as a victory, "unlimited OT" isn't even going to be implemented until 2014, oddly enough the same time PBS is implemented, so we won't even have hardly any OT anyway then.

Now I don't pick up OT so I don't care one way or the other, but unblocking OT will mean less need for RSVs, witch means less pilots and more then likely furloughs. So you take your pick, I know I would rather not have any furloughs.

I guess its OK for the company to just do whatever they want, whenever they want with no push back from ALPA.. like how they were just violating the contract with low time FO's getting lines built out of seniority order.. but who cares right?

ALPA has filed a grievance. What else can they do?

As far as new hire bonus there is no plan to up it to 10K but don't ever let the truth get in the way of your point. So here is a good rumor they are upping the bonus but it is going to be a lot more then to 10K think 30K. Hell if you are going to run with a BS rumor make it a good one.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I was hired at Colgan a few years before we were destroyed by Pinnacle in their failed attempt to use us to whipsaw. Didn't have the requisite time for minimums to go to the majors who were hiring then and there are no shortcut bs "bridge courses" for real jobs. I had no desire to go to LCCs at that time. Still really don't, but doesn't seem like there are many other options these days sitting on this sinking ship. I'm done with the rest of the crap, it's just not worth my time.

Failed attempt to whipsaw? I'd say it was a very successful attempt! The original key players all got their golden parachutes and bailed out of Pinnacle Corp. Phil T, Doug S, Peter H, all gone to greener pastures. They milked it, scored big $$$$, and got out. The pilots were stuck with what was still left over. I thought you said you were an AF pilot with an ATP? That means you had at leat 1,500 and Air Force stick time. You would be qualified for Delta and Northwest, in the 2004-2007 timeframe. And why wouldn't you want to go to a LCC? You realize LCC means JetBlue, Spirit, VX? Somehow Colgan was better than these options? It's a little weird, considering your qualifications, but I suppose to each his own.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Why only for Pinnacle. As I said, I interviewed in EARLY 2006. What you're talking about was Fall of 2006, several months later.

Yes, it was Fall and you were hired in March, so you wouldn't have seen it online.

Yep, that was me. And I'll admit I almost did it. I had a buddy that did that program, too. And I'm glad I didn't do it. The more I thought about it, the more I realized it was money for nothing to fly for a carrier that paid peanut wages with crap work rules. If you'll keep reading my posts, you'll see that hasn't changed in 7+ years. Paying money for nothing (you can rationalize it by calling it "opportunity costs" if you want) is bad for anything, not just aviation.

There's an opportunity cost for sure, but dont make it sound like these RJ courses are the reason RJ pay is the way it is. In fact, even WITH a current shortage of pilots applying at the regional level, the 9E pilots are about to vote in a huge concessionary package. Apparently, they think in the next 7 years, the FO wage being offered is plenty to hire and retain talent. Will you blame the RJ courses for this predicament, or does someone else (Delta?) get the fall?

I'm not judging you for doing an RJ program. I'm judging you for being hypocritcal on the job front. You took a short cut, then talk about how people "fresh from the fight for a job" should be the first in line. THAT, to me, is hypocritical. I don't give a damn if you did an RJ course. It's the holier than thou attitude that tends to exude from your posts on here and pretty much every other forum you post on.

Lets compare apples to apples. I did not make fun of any 9E pilot that came through Gulfstream. I still think they earned their 9E job because they had to interview at 9E. They got the 250 hrs at Gulfstream, bu the 9E job was legit. We are now talking about the escape from 9E. Mine was pure hard work, and fresh from the fight for a job. A guaranteed flow interview, in a constant flow, isn't exactly a fight for the job. It's waiting until your number is called up and then getting an interview - twice, apparently allowed. There's quite a difference. I didn't flow or get a guaranteed interview out of 9E. I applied everywhere and got called the regular way. So keep the conversation on the same level, which is escaping 9E. Not how we got to 9E. Plenty of CFIs, Gulfstream grads, and some Jet U grads. We are now talking about the next step out, and mine was 100% legit hard work (and just luck out of the blue call). But what holier than thou attitude? How am I holier? Everyone has opinions. My opinion is, and still remains, is that a regional is not a place to spend a career. I never viewed it as a career stop, and wanted to get out. I don't think I'm holier than those who didn't, because after all, everyone has a different life situation. Some need to stay put for family reasons, or not being able to take a paycut, or being middle aged, etc. I just said to me it seemed unwise to stay, but to each his own. I've always held a pilot is free to do as he/she wishes, and therefore, to each his own. What's wrong with that?

 

[TUCKnTRUCK]

Why would you go to Colgan with that kind of experience? Why not the LCCs? In any case, just because you didn't fly jets doesn't mean you didn't have any impact bringing the industry down. In fact, Phil T bought your airline, a non-union airline, for the sole purpose of growing you guys with Q400s while shrinking a union-ALPA Pinnacle (downgrading, displacements). Did you already forget Pinnacle was still working under a 1999 contract that was amendable in May 2005? Buying Colgan and giving them Qs for a slap in the face to every Pinnacle pilot, and the same money was used to do this that came from the NWA bankruptcy convertible note. Basically, money earned by Pinnacle pilots moving Piinnacle planes. This continued while Colgan continued to upgrade guys at 1,500 hrs in Saabs. You had a union drive later, when really, it was already too late. The damage was done. The intent of Phil T worked. You are truly blind if you don't see that. So yes, pot meet kettle. And why would you take a job at pre-ALPA Colgan in the first place? That's about the lowest of the low that you could go to.

As a Colgan pilot, you have zero grounds to make any argument on hiring standards. Just look at your colleagues in "Flying Cheap" talking about being hired with 300-500 hrs and then upgrading at 1,500 hrs on a Saab. You are correct, you can teach a monkey to do a V1 cut. Except some fail even at that, and then lie about it on applications. And then because the airline they go to are so bottom barrel, they didn't even attempt to really find out the 'facts' stated on an application were true or not. Anyway, you are crazy if you think non-union Colgan wasn't used as a whipsaw against union Pinnacle.

So wait, your weak pilot group couldn't get a contract in place with decent scope, allowing Phil to buy Colgan, and grow the company with flying that had been bid and awarded to Colgan 4 years prior? Colgan pilots had no say in getting bought/ grown/ merged, Pinnacle pilots did.

Are you familiar with PRIA? Do you actually know what happens when a records request/ employment verification process? The only thing you get back is "yes he/she" worked here. Maybe if you had an experience beyond a puppy milk pilot program you would know stuff like this.

Prior to the accident, there was no further way for them to verify what happened if gulfstream didn't volunteer the records, which they would not do for fear of a lawsuit.

Recap? CC paid for a job flying routes and cites previously served by mainline.

Rocketman took a stepping stone job flying government subsidized ( because mainline would not serve the cities) in equipment that was never "mainline"

In 2004 the LCC track record was spotty at best. Look at Indy air? Jblue was a gamble.

Quite simply your perception of you will always be very different then what everybody else perceives, and there's a reason that nobody respects the path you chose except others who paid similarly.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Bottom line: 9E will be dragging the unionized carriers down with this concession.

I love the latest email: "why junior FOs should vote yes" is a topic. Is ALPA selling this contract to us? Heck yeah!

The second ask was by definition going to start a race to the bottom, even the judge said so. This TA is industry average for costing. How is industry average dragging everyone down?

 

[Gonzo]

Can someone post the TA?

 

[A-300F4-622R]

At the risk of becoming tedious, I've flown with guys who checked the boxes at a Plot Factory. They were awesome at telling me the signal width of a high range VOR at x number of miles. They were just this side of retarded on how to operate an aviation appliance outisde of the hilariously shallow bounds of their experience. Aces at the FD-aided ILS, but when we didn't know why something that we thought was supposed to be happening wasn't happening, they were dumber than Gomer Pyle. "Hey, where are we?" "I dunno, check the map!" There's a reason you don't see these guys flying Falcons out of No Angles, Mexico. They'd be deader than dog dirt.

Truer words have never been written on this website.

 

[jynxyjoe]

Can someone post the TA?

It's our JCBA with a LOA lasting 7 years. Rates, vacation, health get adjusted, rates are also capped but the cap puts us at the average or (mid range) as I've heard it called. There's a lot of stuff in the LOA, I don't feel comfortable pontificating until I've been to a roadshow at least once. We didn't get nearly the deal AE got if that's what you are wondering. The judge has our back but the company is still out of money and we just got another cash infusion from Delta so see us through January. Last thing I saw was supposedly confidential but it'll be hitting the interwebz before long I imagine.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Can someone post the TA?

No, folks would rather question each others' character and qualifications instead.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

So wait, your weak pilot group couldn't get a contract in place with decent scope, allowing Phil to buy Colgan, and grow the company with flying that had been bid and awarded to Colgan 4 years prior? Colgan pilots had no say in getting bought/ grown/ merged, Pinnacle pilots did.

I'll give you the above. 9E was pretty spineless. Though I did hear that 9E ALPA was able to get some judge to agree that Colgan under Pinnalce Corp should be single certificate (single operation) and that would have paved the way for a one-seniority list back then, but then apparently the judge went back on his own word. There was some weird story like this.

Are you familiar with PRIA? Do you actually know what happens when a records request/ employment verification process? The only thing you get back is "yes he/she" worked here. Maybe if you had an experience beyond a puppy milk pilot program you would know stuff like this.

Back when? I filled out PRIA forms for my latest job, and it was a lot more thorough than 'did they work here.' There were several forms. One was a NDR driver check. One was a certificate/medical info check.....
to the airman consenting in Part II below concerning: (i) current airman medical certificate; (ii) current airman certificates indicating level, category, class, and associated type ratings, including any limitations to those certificates and ratings; and, (iii) summaries of legal enforcement actions resulting in a finding by the Administrator of a violation of Title 49 U.S.C. or a regulation prescribed or order issued under this Title that was not subsequently overturned [as provided by 49 U.S.C. § 44703(h)(1)(A)].



and also, there was even one PRIA form that had ALL my information in regards to training at 9E. I know this, because I checked the box to send me the same info they send to my new potential employer. I saw something I had never seen at 9E. Every class (indoc, hazmat, recurrent), every test, PC/PTs, and all the dates I ever took those things were in that form.

Prior to the accident, there was no further way for them to verify what happened if gulfstream didn't volunteer the records, which they would not do for fear of a lawsuit.

I believe PRIA is required by law. I may be wrong. Regardless, he was a deceitful liar and cost the lives of 50 people on that cold Feb day. Colgan should have shut down as soon as the report came out.

Recap? CC paid for a job flying routes and cites previously served by mainline.

Rocketman took a stepping stone job flying government subsidized ( because mainline would not serve the cities) in equipment that was never "mainline"

That's your justification? Your analogy is laughable at best. "Previously served by mainline" is not the fault of regional pilots. It was mainline pilots who took it away, but now finally are starting to take it back with the new Delta pilot contract and the new United pilot contract. Over 400 CRJ-200/ERJ aircraft will now be parked as mainline starts to take back the flying. I honestly can't wait to see Delta start flying the B717 from DTW to LAN or FNT. I remember flying into those airports in a C152 and landing behind a NWA A319. Are you serious about EAS route flying? So what if it was never mainline? EAS airlines like Colgan and Great Lakes were the bottom of bottom barrels when it came to pay. The only saving grace back in those days was a quick upgrade to finally make $29-38/hr as a 1900 Captain. An AF pilot (a retiree?) chose Colgan over others? Or chose Colgan because no one else would hire? I know only a couple ex-AF pilots and none of them chose an EAS regional airline. Most went to LCCs or the cargo majors (Fedex UPS).

In 2004 the LCC track record was spotty at best. Look at Indy air? Jblue was a gamble.

Quite simply your perception of you will always be very different then what everybody else perceives, and there's a reason that nobody respects the path you chose except others who paid similarly.

Indy Air was hardly a LCC. It was a regional airline, flying CRJs by itself after United and Delta ceased their business. Only in their last year of operation did they reach out and get some Airbus aircraft, but it was too late. Using Indy is a very poor example. JetBlue was a gamble? How? They were profitable almost from the get-go. Most LCCs from the 2003-2008 era are still around. JetBlue, Spirit, Airtran, VX. In fact, if you had started at any of those airlines in 2003-2007 you'd be a Captain (senior at half of them). The only real gamble are the regional and EAS airlines. Those are contract work and are always up for re-bid.

 

[Gonzo]

It's our JCBA with a LOA lasting 7 years. Rates, vacation, health get adjusted, rates are also capped but the cap puts us at the average or (mid range) as I've heard it called. There's a lot of stuff in the LOA, I don't feel comfortable pontificating until I've been to a roadshow at least once. We didn't get nearly the deal AE got if that's what you are wondering. The judge has our back but the company is still out of money and we just got another cash infusion from Delta so see us through January. Last thing I saw was supposedly confidential but it'll be hitting the interwebz before long I imagine.

Thanks, is the whole upgrades going back to 1st year in the LOA?