A student that lies...

chrisreedrules said:
I like to call aviation where things aren't just handed to you. You have to work hard to achieve your goals. Scenario:
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Not really. I hate to burst your bubble. I don't mean that in a condescending way. I'm sure your a great guy and of good character and you would like to see these types in aviation, hence your high standard. I would really hate to see you head off into the world of professional aviation, which is the least character driven business on earth and expect this standard. It will only lead to disappointment.

I have personally seen the super hot chick from CFI training go from a 172 to the right seat go a GV. Or the captain at my current employer who was lucky to enough to upgrade in our cancelled Middle East program (because no one was willing to move to the ME). Instead of seeing how lucky he was he is now the Nazi of the flight line. Unwilling to help anyone and the enforcer of all that is wrong with copilots, behind their back of course. The only reason he is flying domestically as a captain is because of events that were out of his control and handed him a great opportunity on a silver platter. Now he sees it as a chance to harass those who he perceives as "lesser" than him.

Don't let it get to you because you will see it your entire career.
 
Roger Roger said:
Lots of ways to skin a cat. What you did might have been harsh but this is a harsh business that is unforgiving of errors or, in fact, lying, whether to yourself or to other people. Personally what I would have said is, "hey your clock started at 2 PM, don't know where you were but it wasn't my office, now we have x topics to do on the ground before we fly so I'm going to cancel the airplane this afternoon and we will just do ground."
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^this
I have had a few "coming to Jesus" meetings with students before under similar circumstances. I am grossly intolerant of people that are lazy and waste my time. (I could fill my schedule with folks who show up on time and prepared instead of those that don't) This is too important to half-ass! Because of this, I have had to show a couple people the door that were unwilling to put in the required effort to be safe and successful.
 
MikeD said:
The instructor/student relationship is "you're being taught. Learn it or wash out of training." :)

Seriously though, while a customer is a customer; it doesn't mean the instructor has to be a chump and take whatever crap the customer chooses to give. The customer doesn't HAVE to be your customer, he can go be someone elses' problem with his crap attitude.
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Little more complex in the civilian world, where they're paying money for the service instead of Uncle Sam. :) As long as they bring their checkbook, they're not going to wash out.

By the way, I'm not saying that the instructor has to take crap from the student, but what crap is being taken? Student doesn't show up on time, student gets charged, instructor gets paid anyway. Seems fair enough to me. Whatever personal slight the instructor feels over it is on him.
 
dasleben said:
Little more complex in the civilian world, where they're paying money for the service instead of Uncle Sam. :) As long as they bring their checkbook, they're not going to wash out.
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Been there and done that, long ago and I would hope things haven't gone far downhill. I still expect standards of some type. It's not the instructors job to feed the student with the silver spoon just because they're bringing the checkbook. The student does have to put in some degree of effort on his own. And the idea that a student will never wash out so long as the $$$ are coming in, while realistic in terms of what goes on I agree, is unfortunately everything that's wrong with the civilian flight training environment.

By the way, I'm not saying that the instructor has to take crap from the student, but what crap is being taken? Student doesn't show up on time, student gets charged, instructor gets paid anyway. Seems fair enough to me. Whatever personal slight the instructor feels over it is on him.
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I should say, having to deal with a crap student. Dealing with or keeping such a student is indeed the instructors choice. I personally wouldn't bother.
 
Not too much to add other than what was said, but I would forgo the sarcasm next time. There's more professional ways to be straightforward, blunt, and get your point across. Live and learn. Hopefully he does too.
 
MikeD said:
Been there and done that, long ago and I would hope things haven't gone far downhill. I still expect standards of some type. It's not the instructors job to feed the student with the silver spoon just because they're bringing the checkbook. The student does have to put in some degree of effort on his own. And the idea that a student will never wash out so long as the $$$ are coming in, while realistic in terms of what goes on I agree, is unfortunately everything that's wrong with the civilian flight training environment.
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Hey now, I never said you had to spoon feed students, or drag them through. When I was a CFI, I'd send home unprepared students, and bill them for my time. I simply don't care for the idea of taking them to the back room and chewing them out over life lessons. That simply wasn't my job. Like Boris Badenov said: Don't get mad, get paid. :)

I agree that students should be washed out at some point, but there's no way to do it if they keep bringing money. If you kick them out of the flight school, they'll go to another flight school. That said, I had no qualms with charging an unprepared, unmotivated student until he was out of money. That's really what constitutes a "washout" these days, anyway. I had a good number of them.
 
OP handled the situation very well. This isn't a business where you can pretend things that are out of line are ok. It costs so much per hour that you would be doing the guy a disservice by not being 100% up front and direct. Sometimes the 18 year old kids need their butt handed to them in a sarcastic manner to get it. Most of the time, they don't feel the sting until you start charging their account for the no-show. Magically, all of the excuses seem to stop and they make every lesson on time!

I disagree with washing out. I don't care if it takes a few extra hours for something to click, as long as it clicks. There does come a point where some people are taking so much extra time that you need to sit them down and discuss it but I would never wash somebody out for learning slow. It shouldn't matter how long it takes somebody because you shouldn't sign a guy off until he has LEARNED everything that is required by the PTS. This means he actually understands and is able to correlate and therefor will retain his knowledge and skill. We all know it is our job to make sure this is so before they hit the check ride because there are far too many examiners that are happy to hand out PPLs based on a rote-repeat ground and a "well he got up and down" check ride.
 
dasleben said:
Hey now, I never said you had to spoon feed students, or drag them through. When I was a CFI, I'd send home unprepared students, and bill them for my time. I simply don't care for the idea of taking them to the back room and chewing them out over life lessons. That simply wasn't my job. Like Boris Badenov said: Don't get mad, get paid. :).
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I wasn't inferring that you had said to spoon feed them (which you didn't), I was merely building upon your post with additional comments of my own in regards to how bad I've seen some CFIs doing this with their students.
 
I've read a lot of stories like this on these forums and it blows my mind that there are so many students like this. I started saving money in junior high to hopefully get my license one day and was just able to finish it this year as a senior in college. I can't imagine skipping lessons or not showing up just because I didn't feel like it. Are there really that many people getting their license just because mom and dad are paying for it?
 
I had a young instructor who stood me up twice and showed up late to pretty much every lesson. This was on my last days at ATP. It was so frustrating. I couldn't really do anything about it but deal with him.. I studied hard and passed my checkrides.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
..... I would really hate to see you head off into the world of professional aviation, which is the least character driven business on earth and expect this standard. It will only lead to disappointment......Don't let it get to you because you will see it your entire career.
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I like to think that in military aviation -- knowledge, character, personal and professional high standards is a cultural norm they will try to preserve. But I agree that in civilian aviation that downward trend may continue. Civilian pilots seem unaware of what Gov't/Industry goals are for this business. Since NASA has lost its primary mission, one of its little advertised fill-in R&D projects is automating aircraft and the airspace system through spin-off entities like Aurora Flight Sciences. If their goals are realized, "pilots" as we used to know them will increasingly become, as Aurora calls them, mere "Aircraft Operators." At the last R&D conference I attended in which Aurora participated, NASA-Aurora officers blew off lowered pilot standards (both personal and professional) as "irrelevant" to the future of commercial aviation. They expect the commercial pilot community to ignore what they are doing until the process is too far along to be reversed. Here they explain their plans and objectives in replacing commercial pilots with automation:

"One of the objectives of the whole [Gov't - Industry R&D] community is to develop what we call the man-rated unmanned airplane; there'd be Operators involved, and probably onboard, but not pilots in the sense that you and I think of them today." Dr. John Langford - NASA/Aurora
 
Qutch said:
I like to think that in military aviation -- knowledge, character, personal and professional high standards is a cultural norm they will try to preserve. But I agree that in civilian aviation that downward trend may continue. Civilian pilots seem unaware of what Gov't/Industry goals are for this business. Since NASA has lost its primary mission, one of its little advertised fill-in R&D projects is automating aircraft and the airspace system through spin-off entities like Aurora Aviation. If their goals are realized, "pilots" as we used to know them will increasingly become, as Aurora calls them, mere "Aircraft Operators." At the last R&D conference I attended in which Aurora participated, NASA-Aurora officers blew off lowered pilot standards (both personal and professional) as "irrelevant" to the future of commercial aviation. They expect the commercial pilot community to ignore what they are doing until the process is too far along to be reversed. Here they explain their plans and objectives in replacing commercial pilots with automation:

"One of the objectives of the whole [Gov't - Industry R&D] community is to develop what we call the man-rated unmanned airplane; there'd be Operators involved, and probably onboard, but not pilots in the sense that you and I think of them today." Dr. John Langford - NASA/Aurora
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Makes me sick..
 
Monday night quarterbacking here, it could have been handled a bit more professionally. I personally wouldn't have gone for the sarcasm and wouldn't have done it in front any other customers. But you are right you need to stand up for yourself and draw the line of what you are willing to accept for your students. I'd also consider giving him the boot and let another CFI take him.

It sounds like he's a immature and could be an even worse problem child later on if he bends metal or worse on a solo flight. The FAA is going to come back to you with his twisted version of events.
 
Qutch said:
I like to think that in military aviation -- knowledge, character, personal and professional high standards is a cultural norm they will try to preserve. But I agree that in civilian aviation that downward trend may continue. Civilian pilots seem unaware of what Gov't/Industry goals are for this business. Since NASA has lost its primary mission, one of its little advertised fill-in R&D projects is automating aircraft and the airspace system through spin-off entities like Aurora Flight Sciences. If their goals are realized, "pilots" as we used to know them will increasingly become, as Aurora calls them, mere "Aircraft Operators." At the last R&D conference I attended in which Aurora participated, NASA-Aurora officers blew off lowered pilot standards (both personal and professional) as "irrelevant" to the future of commercial aviation. They expect the commercial pilot community to ignore what they are doing until the process is too far along to be reversed. Here they explain their plans and objectives in replacing commercial pilots with automation:

"One of the objectives of the whole [Gov't - Industry R&D] community is to develop what we call the man-rated unmanned airplane; there'd be Operators involved, and probably onboard, but not pilots in the sense that you and I think of them today." Dr. John Langford - NASA/Aurora
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While certainly that is the end game goal, I suspect that the threat of emergency operations will limit the ability of this to come to fruition.
 
ppragman said:
While certainly that is the end game goal, I suspect that the threat of emergency operations will limit the ability of this to come to fruition.
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Yes. That factor is discussed at every conference, the issue raised by those who are actually pilots. To counter, automation enthusiasts point out as an example: the era when spin training was once mandatory and welcomed by enthusiastic students. Aviation psychologists point out that now, students and instructors avoid spins (and other upset recovery training) in favor of something called "spin awareness discussions," claiming that many are unable to handle the type of situation that developed in the Colgan incident. Aviation psychologists and aviation economists claim that aviation still attracts high intellectual capacity applicants, but not enough of them to meet future air transportation needs, necessitating the arrival of automation specialists. This area of aviation R&D and economics isn't of interest to most pilots, but for those who are interested, their studies and these discussions are starting to make it into general conferences and print circulation.
.
The Fall of Airline Pilots and the Rise of Hedge Fund Managers
- MacroEconomicWoes - Brian Finn - Harvard 2006 - White House National Economic Council

"The requirements for becoming an airline pilot have lessened over the years."
http://www.macroeconomicwoes.com/uncategorized/the-decline-and-fall-of-airline-pilots.html
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-Former editor of both AOPA Pilot and Flying. - Richard Collins
"One reason there are fewer pilots is because the mood in our
country has changed. There is more of a tendency today for people to be needy and dependent and risk-averse. That is not a good demographic for flight training or for flying."
http://airfactsjournal.com/2012/10/mayday-the-declining-pilot-population/
.
 
mtrep09 said:
I've read a lot of stories like this on these forums and it blows my mind that there are so many students like this. I started saving money in junior high to hopefully get my license one day and was just able to finish it this year as a senior in college. I can't imagine skipping lessons or not showing up just because I didn't feel like it. Are there really that many people getting their license just because mom and dad are paying for it?
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Yeah, it breaks my heart. I couldn't believe it the first time I met one of them, and talked to him about flying ... and his response was "Eh, my uncle flies, and he said it was an easy job."

I mean, I literally couldn't believe it... I tried to engage him about several things, and I just got a shrug.

-Fox
 
Bandit_Driver said:
Monday night quarterbacking here, it could have been handled a bit more professionally. I personally wouldn't have gone for the sarcasm and wouldn't have done it in front any other customers. But you are right you need to stand up for yourself and draw the line of what you are willing to accept for your students. I'd also consider giving him the boot and let another CFI take him.

It sounds like he's a immature and could be an even worse problem child later on if he bends metal or worse on a solo flight. The FAA is going to come back to you with his twisted version of events.
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Just to clarify, I certainly never did/would do this in front of customers. This was a private conversation that I had with said student. I told the new CFI how I handled it because he asked, "What was wrong with ______ today"? Then he told me that I was possibly a little too harsh. And now he's the new guys problem.
 
Acrofox said:
Yeah, it breaks my heart. I couldn't believe it the first time I met one of them, and talked to him about flying ... and his response was "Eh, my uncle flies, and he said it was an easy job."

I mean, I literally couldn't believe it... I tried to engage him about several things, and I just got a shrug.

-Fox
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A lot of students we train at my school are foreigners. The vast majority of them are here for the title, prestige, or whatever else they think goes along with being a pilot. Most of us US guys who are slugging it out in the trenches of flight instructing wouldn't be here if there wasn't some part of us that loved every minute of it. At least thats what I like to think.
 
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