CFI's giving up on a pilot

Beech90

Beech90

Well-Known Member
I had the chance to fly with a private pilot. ( older guy) who has 10,000 hours. The FAA mandated he flew with a CFI due to a runway incursion a few months ago. He radio skills and situational awareness lacked and I didn't feel okay signing him off.

This individual has had gear up landings and has ran out of fuel ( Years ago). He has not made the best decisions, however he was workable. The flight school I currently work at does not want me to fly with this guy as they do not want to deal with the baggage this could come with, like getting involved with the FAA. My whole idea is instructors are supposed to help pilots and train them to proficiency. ( who knew right?)

If I do not help this individual the FAA personally told me they are going to send a letter asking him to surrender his license. Personally I do not feel this should be the case and it's my ( as well as all CFI's) duty to help this person and retrain him as needed.

Any thoughts/comments?
 
My FAA inspector gave me one piece of parting advice after my check ride.

Do not sign your name to anybody unless you feel confident in both their abilities and their maturity level, dont risk your career or personal liability for anyone, you owe nobody anything.

This guy's got 10,000 hours of habits, you really feel that you can change him? If so, best wishes to you, but you'd better be really upfront with the guy. Frankly, this doesn't sound like a responsibility for a CFI... what did the FAA actually say you're supposed to do? Give him some dual, "sign him off for ____ what?", if they question his abilities he should get a 709 ride and that's their enforcement issue.

I wouldn't want my name in his book with that history.
 
Sucks... But you have to cover your rear. Is it really worth the risk if this guy does something like this again, or something worse that results in himself or someone else getting hurt or killed? I think I would ground myself if I had that many cases of pilot error like that.
 
Why would your flight school not want to "get involved" with the FAA? It's a flight school.... If it's a 709 ride, review the logs, and get the mechanic to help review the AD compliance with you. If the airplane is in service it should be good to go. It just helps to get everything organized to present to the inspector.

Sounds to me like they have something to hide. If you school stays away from 709 rides because the don't want the FAA poking around, make a run for it. Something (usually with placards, MX or A/C logs) is questionable. Remember, any incident happens and that airplane is not airworthy (mechanical or legal) its your ass. Mechanics can still work and get paid with out their certificate, you can't.

Back to your OP. It's really all about his attitude. Is he demonstrating a willingness to learn or does he just want to get it over with so he can fly again? If he realizes his skills are lacking and wants to get better, then teach him. If he thinks the FAA is just riding his ass and wonders what a young snot nosed punk of a CFI could possibly teach him, then let him lose his certificate. Not for protecting himself, but for his unknowing passengers and people on the ground who have no say in the matter.
 
It depends on the FSDO. The first flight school I worked for had the FAA on their rears at all hours of all days, and most of it was not legit, or was at least punitive in a way that IMHO wasn't fair (they certainly weren't out watching any other flight schools nearly as much). Guess the owner got sideways with them somehow.

OTOH, I worked for another school that SHOULD have had the FAA on the ramp every day, and of course they were absent.
 
The main reason I enjoy freelance instructing. The only people I have to answer to are myself, the student, and (god forbid) the FAA. :D

Oh, and I like to keep the FBO that supplies the rentals in the loop too since the planes aren't mine.
 
Boris Badenov said:
It depends on the FSDO. The first flight school I worked for had the FAA on their rears at all hours of all days, and most of it was not legit, or was at least punitive in a way that IMHO wasn't fair (they certainly weren't out watching any other flight schools nearly as much). Guess the owner got sideways with them somehow.

OTOH, I worked for another school that SHOULD have had the FAA on the ramp every day, and of course they were absent.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that's universal in aviation, not just flight schools.
 
Beech90 said:
I had the chance to fly with a private pilot. ( older guy) who has 10,000 hours. The FAA mandated he flew with a CFI due to a runway incursion a few months ago. He radio skills and situational awareness lacked and I didn't feel okay signing him off.

This individual has had gear up landings and has ran out of fuel ( Years ago). He has not made the best decisions, however he was workable. The flight school I currently work at does not want me to fly with this guy as they do not want to deal with the baggage this could come with, like getting involved with the FAA. My whole idea is instructors are supposed to help pilots and train them to proficiency. ( who knew right?)

If I do not help this individual the FAA personally told me they are going to send a letter asking him to surrender his license. Personally I do not feel this should be the case and it's my ( as well as all CFI's) duty to help this person and retrain him as needed.

Any thoughts/comments?
Click to expand...
heh....Good luck undoing what sounds like many, many years of poor judgement and bad habits.
 
Every AME who administers his share of medicals has to occasionally say "no" to a pilot. Nobody likes doing it - CFI, AME, or even FSDO or FAA, but hopefully it's for the right reason.

From what I heard about Arnold Palmer not too long ago - hanging up his wings on his 80th birthday - that's the way I want to end my flying days - on my own terms.
 
OP,

Your intentions are noble. But from the information you've provided, he sounds like the type of guy who would have an emergency revocation. Do you really want to get involved with that?

Not everybody was meant to fly.
 
Kind of OT question.

What kind of poo-storm does a CFI get into if a current or former student(especially former students) makes a boo boo? I imagine there would be an attempt at getting monetary compensation from the flight instructor to any beneficiaries, but what does the FAA do? Fine the instructor? Yank the CFI cert? Go after the pilot certs as well?
 
As unfortunate as it is I agree that this may not be something you really want to tackle. It is sad that this guy had to be sent for remedial training but it seems like he has done it to himself. I know you really want to help him and let him continue flying but you run a HUGE risk to yourself and your future. As someone said above the only saving grace for this guy would be for you to determine whether he has the attitude and desire to learn from his mistakes. If he has no desire to correct his issues then I would stay away from him because he fails to see his own deficiencies. We all know guys with 10,000,000 hours and experience doing everything related to aviation but as time progresses many just seem to slowly loose their edge. The good ones recognize that its happening and the ones that don't are simply dangerous!
 
I was waiting in a local flight school a few years back when a CFI and some Indian kid came walking in. Kid was PO'd and they were arguing before he stormed out, jumped on his crotch rocket, and took off. Later came to find out that he had gone up to try and get his complex endorsement. Made three approaches in the pattern - forgot to drop the gear on each one. Started to land in the grass on his third attempt (150-ft wide runway) before the CFI took the airplane from him.

Kid was angry they wouldn't sign him off so he left without paying. I know they called in the sheriff to file a report - not sure what happened, but I hope he was a resident alien.
 
UAL747400 said:
Kind of OT question.

What kind of poo-storm does a CFI get into if a current or former student(especially former students) makes a boo boo? I imagine there would be an attempt at getting monetary compensation from the flight instructor to any beneficiaries, but what does the FAA do? Fine the instructor? Yank the CFI cert? Go after the pilot certs as well?
Click to expand...

Usually, not much. If the training was done properly and documented, and the student screws up, the student is the PIC. The instructor should only get any heat if they start digging through the logbook or training records and find something shady or a requirement that wasn't met.
 
OP

Is this a 709 ride? If it is, you are only required to provide training in the area the FAA found he was deficient. Nothing more. It's NOT a sign off. The only thing you are doing is filling out his logbook showing that he received training and met the standards of the area where he'll be tested. He takes a checkride with the FAA. The liability is on them.

Now, if you see all kinds of other thing wrong with his flying and he's not willing to improve. Call the FSDO, find out who the inspector in charge of his case is, and inform him/her of your concerns.

It's not the CFIs job or duty to ground pilots. We teach pilots. If they no longer want to be taught, then it's out of our hands.
 
UAL747400 said:
What kind of poo-storm does a CFI get into if a current or former student(especially former students) makes a boo boo?
Click to expand...

My only experience so far is a friend who's a CFI had a student porpoise and bust a nose gear/firewall while he was out doing some solo practice. The FAA talked with the CFI and what they really wanted/had to see was that the training was well documented and they had specifically covered botched landings and go-arounds. So, it's a good idea to keep lesson plans with notes, that go beyond a few scribbles in the 1/2" square that most logbooks provide for comments. Basically, you need to be able to show that you covered all the material required and the student showed proficiency before you let them fly.
 
Beech90 said:
Well the guy now does not want to fly and he refuses to pay for anything more than 4 hours of ground training. I notfied the ASI at the FSDO, and they are going to pull his license.

Lost cause I guess :cool:
Click to expand...
If someone is going to be stubborn like that I wouldn't risk my signature in his log book. The next time the guy screws the liability could reach back to you since you signed him off as being "safe".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top