Pilot Shortage again (non-121)

So would it eventually be worth it if you did take out a loan to finish the training? I dont have any commercial experience, but trying to learn from everyone and trying to follow this debate, its all over the board and Ive yet to come to a conclusion. I guess the only thing I have found to be true is foreign pilots, i was in south florida and flew into an airport in a piper super cub...walked into an FBO and I think I was the only white individual in there...HONESTY! All Indian students dressed up in pilot uniforms at the mill learning to fly.
 
I will fall into that category of full time IT guy by day, moonlighting as a CFI by night and weekend. If 1500 hour rule wasn't an issue, then I'd full time CFI to get my 500 or whatever. How does forcing me to keep my head in 2 places (and not 100% into flying) make me a better pilot? Can't think of too many careers out there that require you to do another full time job in A TOTALLY DIFFERENT FIELD just to have a "shot" at making it to that highly coveted 20k a year regional job. There has to be a sweeping reform for this to ever work out.
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I'm in the exact same boat . . . just can't get myself to even consider making 1/5 of my current IT pay! Heck, even the local flight training mill where I live requires part-time CFIs to be available at least 3 days a week . . . and forget about benefits as basic as health insurance. Unless compensation for entry pilot jobs starts to catch up to the skills and responsibility they are asked to exercise each time they help carry a plane-full load of people or teach somebody the art of flying, I'll keep taking my frustration with the status quo out on weekend fly-outs!
 
cfitime said:
I spoke with a rep from a large flight academy the other day and he told me 95% of the students a foreign. Problem they are having is the visa they come on doesn't allow them to work as a CFI. His issue now is no Americans are in the pipeline, so hiring is a constant challenge for them. Without banks lending for training very few can write a check for 60k-100k. This issue alone compounded with the 1500 hour rule I believe will put great pressure on regionals and 135's
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The 141 flight school I did my training at is all but dead. When I went through, I couldn't even get a plane when I wanted and they had more "kids" lined up than spots available. Economy went Tango Uniform so 90% of their domestic training pool dried up. This coupled with the school losing their foreign contract along the way all but equals death for the flying side of the school. I have a friend that's there still picking up what's left of the multi-students and he says they haven't had a new student start since January of this year. He tells me that he's waiting for the day he shows up with the doors chained and a sign saying it was fun while it lasted.

On the survey side of things, our minimum is 500TT. At one point we wanted 800TT and at least a CFI and had no problems getting people with those times. We then had to drop our times to just 500TT with a Commercial because we couldn't find anyone with the previous mins. The last posting we put in Jobs Available had maybe 6 responses received. I'm not sure what to attribute this too though. Maybe pilots with the higher times have moved to bigger things, or maybe it's because between the two companies we employ almost 110 pilots. All I know is that it's already getting harder and harder for us to find pilots when needed.

I believe the landscape of the way 'merica does aviation is changing and we are in for things we'd never thought we'd see such as multi-crew licensing, certain operations who have been around forever dying and so forth. It isn't feasible and something has got to give.
 
Dan64456 said:
The requirement isn't the problem, it's the "reward" after starving for countless more years as a result of it. Back when regionals only hired people with 1500 or 2500 or more TT, they only had to spend a few years at said regional then get hired for 6 figures at a major. Now you spend 10+ years at the regional 5 of which pay less than 40k a year. Why go thru 60k of training and 60k+ of college when you can go to state school, become a nurse, and make 60k+ fresh out of college? (for less than half the training cost too). Pilots at ALL levels need WAY more compensation for the required sacrifice. That's why no one wants to do it anymore. 250 hour wonders made sense when they got a 20k a year job coming out. But 20k a year doesn't make sense for someone who spend 2 years already starving as a CFI, only to make less than 40 for the next 5 to 10.
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This just proves "the best and the brightest" are not going into in aviation today. "Sure....I'll spend $100k to make $20k." So what does that say about those still choosing to try to "live the dream?" Me? I've been fairly dim for a loooong time. :) At least that's what my wife tells me.
 
Cóndor said:
I'm in the exact same boat . . . just can't get myself to even consider making 1/5 of my current IT pay! Heck, even the local flight training mill where I live requires part-time CFIs to be available at least 3 days a week . . . and forget about benefits as basic as health insurance. Unless compensation for entry pilot jobs starts to catch up to the skills and responsibility they are asked to exercise each time they help carry a plane-full load of people or teach somebody the art of flying, I'll keep taking my frustration with the status quo out on weekend fly-outs!
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Having been there, I can honestly say that my blood pressure is a lot lower now than it was before, but your mileage may vary. This career certainly isn't for everyone.

(As it stands, in ±6 months I will have "only" swallowed a 50% pay reduction. Money is not everything, but it sure is nice to have.)

Stomp16 said:
The 141 flight school I did my training at is all but dead. When I went through, I couldn't even get a plane when I wanted and they had more "kids" lined up than spots available. Economy went Tango Uniform so 90% of their domestic training pool dried up. This coupled with the school losing their foreign contract along the way all but equals death for the flying side of the school. I have a friend that's there still picking up what's left of the multi-students and he says they haven't had a new student start since January of this year. He tells me that he's waiting for the day he shows up with the doors chained and a sign saying it was fun while it lasted.

On the survey side of things, our minimum is 500TT. At one point we wanted 800TT and at least a CFI and had no problems getting people with those times. We then had to drop our times to just 500TT with a Commercial because we couldn't find anyone with the previous mins. The last posting we put in Jobs Available had maybe 6 responses received. I'm not sure what to attribute this too though. Maybe pilots with the higher times have moved to bigger things, or maybe it's because between the two companies we employ almost 110 pilots. All I know is that it's already getting harder and harder for us to find pilots when needed.

I believe the landscape of the way 'merica does aviation is changing and we are in for things we'd never thought we'd see such as multi-crew licensing, certain operations who have been around forever dying and so forth. It isn't feasible and something has got to give.
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I'm pretty choosy about who to work for...as you know, your operation is great (good money, especially considering the equipment, decent quality of life) but doesn't let you move along, and you top out flying a 206. But your experience, about things going like gangbusters then abruptly reversing course, is pretty much spot on. My school went from many airplanes (and many more bodies) to a few airplanes (and fewer bodies). They also seem to think the "shortage" is right around the corner. Negative. Not for a while anyway, and the "rational choice" people won't even consider doing it until the money's better.

(That leaves us stupid ones who love to fly. :) )

Pilot86 said:
So would it eventually be worth it if you did take out a loan to finish the training? I dont have any commercial experience, but trying to learn from everyone and trying to follow this debate, its all over the board and Ive yet to come to a conclusion. I guess the only thing I have found to be true is foreign pilots, i was in south florida and flew into an airport in a piper super cub...walked into an FBO and I think I was the only white individual in there...HONESTY! All Indian students dressed up in pilot uniforms at the mill learning to fly.
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For the love of all things holy, avoid loan debt. That paycheck, while largely unpalatable, is much more tolerable without loans.
 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323901604578159500567456708.html?KEYWORDS=Sullenberger

Letter from Chesley Sullenberger to the Wall Street Journal in response to a recent article on the looming pilot "shortage." Text:

Regarding your Nov. 29 article on an impending pilot "shortage" ("Industry Fights New-Pilot Mandates," Corporate News) safety standards shouldn't be lowered to accommodate the airlines. The authors portray aspiring aviators as victims of new legislation requiring pilots to have 1,500 hours of flying experience before being entrusted with the lives of passengers. Experience matters. If my first officer Jeff Skiles and I had less experience when we safely landed US Airways Flight 1549 in the Hudson River in January 2009, we could not have had the same outcome.

The new mandates are the result of a decade of crashes needlessly taking lives and were passed by the House and Senate in a single day, a remarkable achievement in this political climate. The industry's claims of a regional-airline pilot shortage amount to a cynical effort to weaken these new congressionally mandated safety standards, and perpetuate the myth of a pilot shortage so they can continue not paying adequate wages. The fact is, when new pilots get into the right seat of a regional jet, they are still getting on-the-job training with you as a passenger in the back. When new-hire regional pilots have only a few-hundred hours in the cockpit they have not yet experienced many cycles of the seasons of the year, or the real world of operational flying beyond a sterile training environment.

The solution is to offer wages and create working conditions that attract well-qualified pilots. We must not lower the standards, but find a way to meet them. And let's not forget the real victims, those who have lost their lives in regional airline crashes.

Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger III

Danville, Calif.
 
tomokc said:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323901604578159500567456708.html?KEYWORDS=Sullenberger

Letter from Chesley Sullenberger to the Wall Street Journal in response to a recent article on the looming pilot "shortage." Text:

Regarding your Nov. 29 article on an impending pilot "shortage" ("Industry Fights New-Pilot Mandates," Corporate News) safety standards shouldn't be lowered to accommodate the airlines. The authors portray aspiring aviators as victims of new legislation requiring pilots to have 1,500 hours of flying experience before being entrusted with the lives of passengers. Experience matters. If my first officer Jeff Skiles and I had less experience when we safely landed US Airways Flight 1549 in the Hudson River in January 2009, we could not have had the same outcome.

The new mandates are the result of a decade of crashes needlessly taking lives and were passed by the House and Senate in a single day, a remarkable achievement in this political climate. The industry's claims of a regional-airline pilot shortage amount to a cynical effort to weaken these new congressionally mandated safety standards, and perpetuate the myth of a pilot shortage so they can continue not paying adequate wages. The fact is, when new pilots get into the right seat of a regional jet, they are still getting on-the-job training with you as a passenger in the back. When new-hire regional pilots have only a few-hundred hours in the cockpit they have not yet experienced many cycles of the seasons of the year, or the real world of operational flying beyond a sterile training environment.

The solution is to offer wages and create working conditions that attract well-qualified pilots. We must not lower the standards, but find a way to meet them. And let's not forget the real victims, those who have lost their lives in regional airline crashes.

Capt. Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger III

Danville, Calif.
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If only the public cared about more than just "affordable" travel :(
 
Patrick said:
If only the public cared about more than just "affordable" travel :(
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Money runs the world, what else do you want the public to be concerned with besides how many greenbacks they've got to fork out to make it from Bakersfield to Toledo??? /rhetorical
 
Stomp16 said:
The 141 flight school I did my training at is all but dead. When I went through, I couldn't even get a plane when I wanted and they had more "kids" lined up than spots available. Economy went Tango Uniform so 90% of their domestic training pool dried up. This coupled with the school losing their foreign contract along the way all but equals death for the flying side of the school. I have a friend that's there still picking up what's left of the multi-students and he says they haven't had a new student start since January of this year. He tells me that he's waiting for the day he shows up with the doors chained and a sign saying it was fun while it lasted.

On the survey side of things, our minimum is 500TT. At one point we wanted 800TT and at least a CFI and had no problems getting people with those times. We then had to drop our times to just 500TT with a Commercial because we couldn't find anyone with the previous mins. The last posting we put in Jobs Available had maybe 6 responses received. I'm not sure what to attribute this too though. Maybe pilots with the higher times have moved to bigger things, or maybe it's because between the two companies we employ almost 110 pilots. All I know is that it's already getting harder and harder for us to find pilots when needed.

I believe the landscape of the way 'merica does aviation is changing and we are in for things we'd never thought we'd see such as multi-crew licensing, certain operations who have been around forever dying and so forth. It isn't feasible and something has got to give.
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There are still more than enough flight schools out there that are filled to the brim with shiny-eyed fools kids like me who want to fly the $hiny stuff. I'm one of them. :tinfoil: It'll take much more than a few flight schools to tank before anything will change....
 
FoodStampsPilot said:
There are still more than enough flight schools out there that are filled to the brim with shiny-eyed fools kids like me who want to fly the $hiny stuff. I'm one of them. :tinfoil: It'll take much more than a few flight schools to tank before anything will change....
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I bet there are, but nothing like pre-2008.
 
Roger Roger said:
Well, hopefully maybe some places in the 135 world will raise compensation so it's worth staying for a little while.

Seems like a lot of the same management that complains about how hard it is to find good pilots thinks that wages that were competitive 15 years ago when guys could still go somewhere from 135 other than a regional, are still competitive. As much as I'd like to fly freight down south there's just no reason to-if I move back down south it might as well be for a regional job that might actually get me somewhere, oh and have decent benefits and time off.
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If I were to do it over again, I would have left Alaska and gone straight to RJ land instead. Freight was "fun" when I was in the airplane, but the schedule and the pay blew.
 
Aww. Don't say that. We are all a product of our experience. Think of how much that time differentiated you from the gaggle of blue suit, red tie, who went instantly from zero to hero in an RJ. Not only did it make you a better pilot (I'm assuming) but you have stories to share with future interviewers and future grand kids!
 
ZapBrannigan said:
Aww. Don't say that. We are all a product of our experience. Think of how much that time differentiated you from the gaggle of blue suit, red tie, who went instantly from zero to hero in an RJ. Not only did it make you a better pilot (I'm assuming) but you have stories to share with future interviewers and future grand kids!
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It was fun when I was flying, but the pay combined with living in random hotels, or being on call 24/7, well, I'd prefer not know that I can stay awake for 40hrs while flying. That said, I really did enjoy flying the airplane at "break neck speed" everywhere, and trying to figure out how to get through lines of TStorms, etc. It was a bit of a challenge.
 
Stomp16 said:
Money runs the world, what else do you want the public to be concerned with besides how many greenbacks they've got to fork out to make it from Bakersfield to Toledo??? /rhetorical
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Via not less than two of our finest hubs, and they had to ride the first leg on one of those "little" prop planes.
ppragman said:
If I were to do it over again, I would have left Alaska and gone straight to RJ land instead. Freight was "fun" when I was in the airplane, but the schedule and the pay blew.
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Moline overnights.
Are you sure? ;)
 
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