Question on PIC out of currency Class Aircraft

purpel

purpel

Well-Known Member
I had a friend of mine ask me a question that I could not answer, so I wanted to ask you guys.


My friend had not flown a multi in over three months and he recently flew a multi and had not done 3 T/O landings in a multi in the previous 90 days. He asked me how he could log it PIC if he flew the leg back home. He flew with a chief pilot who was not a CFI.


Can he log PIC?

I was unable to answer the question.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Just log PIC, that's it.

The interesting thing though, the acting PIC can't log anything...
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I love that part.

btw, purpel, the question is pretty easily answered by reading the reg:

==============================
61.51(e)(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
==============================
Se anything in there about "current"?
 
Just tell him not to overuse the above reg. It's perfectly acceptable flight time in the training segment, but beyond that he should only log PIC time in which he legally signed for the aircraft.
 
dasleben said:
Just tell him not to overuse the above reg. It's perfectly acceptable flight time in the training segment, but beyond that he should only log PIC time in which he legally signed for the aircraft.
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*sigh*
Disagree.
 
SteveC said:
*sigh*
Disagree.
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There's already a thread on this on the "other" site, so I won't get into it here. :)

Suffice to say, if I showed up to an interview with 767 PIC time, despite not having received a Fed observation and Captain's OE, I'd be laughed right out.
 
dasleben said:
There's already a thread on this on the "other" site, so I won't get into it here. :)

Suffice to say, if I showed up to an interview with 767 PIC time, despite not having received a Fed observation and Captain's OE, I'd be laughed right out.
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Still on my phone or I'd type it all out...again. Bottom line, there are legitimate reasons to log ALL of that kind of PIC time, just keep it separate from "real" PIC time More later..
 
Not enough information given to answer the question. I'm going to guess he rode outbound as passenger, and flew the leg back with the Chief pilot as passenger? That would be illegal...
 
dasleben said:
Just tell him not to overuse the above reg. It's perfectly acceptable flight time in the training segment, but beyond that he should only log PIC time in which he legally signed for the aircraft.
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The regs are the regs. The feds don't give a damn what some jim bob 121 carrier wants to accept as PIC time or not. Log what the feds tell you you can log.
 
Hammertime said:
Not enough information given to answer the question. I'm going to guess he rode outbound as passenger, and flew the leg back with the Chief pilot as passenger? That would be illegal...
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Logging PIC ≠ Acting PIC. The sooner we get rid of this BS notion, the better off we are. The ironic thing is, that the people who know the regulations, are 9 times out of 10, just the lowly student, when the CFI often doesn't know the regulations.
 
SteveC said:
Still on my phone or I'd type it all out...again. Bottom line, there are legitimate reasons to log ALL of that kind of PIC time, just keep it separate from "real" PIC time More later..
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Fair enough. As I said on the other site, I have a "Relief Pilot" column so that future employers can see that I've sat left seat in cruise, if they care. I still log it all as SIC, though.

KSCessnaDriver said:
The regs are the regs. The feds don't give a damn what some jim bob 121 carrier wants to accept as PIC time or not. Log what the feds tell you you can log.
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That's fine, but it's in your best interest not to include it in your total PIC figure when applying to jobs that are above entry-level.
 
dasleben said:
There's already a thread on this on the "other" site, so I won't get into it here. :)

Suffice to say, if I showed up to an interview with 767 PIC time, despite not having received a Fed observation and Captain's OE, I'd be laughed right out.
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I understand the rationale for not using certain types of legitimately-logged hours as an indication of experience when applying for an airline job (it's the same as using your teen time pushing pictures on a McDonalds cash register to show your financial experience for a job with an accounting firm). It's a presentation issue, not a logging one (of course, there does appear to be the element that doesn't think following the rules is ok).

But, even in that scenario, exactly how would one who was typed for a 767 and logged his sole manipulator time as PIC have a problem with logging it as PIC?
 
I think that people have a tendency to over-react. From my understanding (second hand information only) the airlines specifically spell out the KIND of PIC time that they want on their application. They specify that it be "acting" PIC time, not "sole manipulator" PIC time. Fair enough - don't put the sole manipulator time down on their application as PIC time - problem solved.

That doesn't mean that pilots can't or shouldn't log sole manipulator PIC time. I personally recommend doing so in a separate column so it is clear that the difference is understood, and the "quality" of PIC time is never in question.

In the corporate and/or the charter world there are times when that sole manipulator time can be used (fulfilling insurance company requirements for example), and it would be silly to forgo that based on other people's ignorance.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Logging PIC ≠ Acting PIC. The sooner we get rid of this BS notion, the better off we are. The ironic thing is, that the people who know the regulations, are 9 times out of 10, just the lowly student, when the CFI often doesn't know the regulations.
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I am aware. I understand the regs. IMO logging PiC when you are not acting as such follows the letter of the law, but not the spirit of it. However that wasn't my point. My point is what I said. Based on my supposition, he carried a passenger without being current to carry passengers. This would be illegal per 61.57
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
But, even in that scenario, exactly how would one who was typed for a 767 and logged his sole manipulator time as PIC have a problem with logging it as PIC?
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Because he doesn't sign for the airplane.

SteveC, meeting insurance minimums may be a valid reason to log sole-manipulator PIC, but it's still rather disingenuous, IMO. Regardless of the legality of logging it, it's still not time flown as the person signing for the aircraft.
 
If you've got a bunch of time and could care less about logging more, fine.... but if you're manipulating the controls (aka "flying the airplane") and are appropriately rated, I cannot think of a more legitimate reason to log the time.

Contrast that with a CFI who sits in the right seat with an experienced pilot, never touches a thing and is half asleep for most of the flight, and logs that as PIC dual given... yet somehow that's more legitimate in most people's minds?
 
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