Conflicts with a captain that results in termination.

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mmmmmm wine
I am curious if you all have experienced this. I have a friend who works for a small 135 charter company (8 planes). When he hired on, he was told by other captains, and first officers to watch out for a certain individual. He had been with the company for about 4 years, started as a first officer, then upgraded to captain. This captain has a history of not being a great pilot, making bad decisions, not listening to first officers with regard to duties ( like taxi instructions etc.) which have resulted in several incidents that he later tries to blame other people on. He also degrades, and talks down to others. Really not a good guy. He had had several write ups against him for various things. The straw that broke the camels back was a situation in which the captain was yelling at my friend over a situation in which he had no place to do so. This ultimately resulted in the captain finally being fired. Has anyone experienced this before? Seems pretty crazy to have a captain in the industry behave like this.
 
The writing was on the wall it sounded like. He had "left" 3 previous jobs in weird fashion, now it looks like its not a surprise.
 
I had one at SkyWest. He is the reason I developed the Professional Standards program there. He was fired before I could get it implemented. He was a real piece of work.
 
mikecweb said:
This industry is teeming with Dbags. In all honesty it's probably 5-10% but since they are so memorable it seems like there are more of them. Most frustrating part is they always seem a way to find a job.
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I'd say it depends where you work, but yes.

Don't let them blow you or your people away. I'd rather bang off a trip and risk being fired if I have a severe conflict, than get into the airplane and risk my/crew's/pax lives. And yes, it can get to that point - Pan American can tell you all about it.
 
mikecweb said:
This industry is teeming with Dbags. In all honesty it's probably 5-10% but since they are so memorable it seems like there are more of them. Most frustrating part is they always seem a way to find a job.
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This.

Sadly, I know a couple people that need to be fired or retire (for a number of reasons) and unfortunately, all the professional standards calls in the world or chief pilot write-ups don't make a hill of difference until they bend metal.

Luckily, I only had to give one "come to Jesus" speech with a captain and packed my flight kit twice at my current airline. All three situations had agreeable results.
 
Bumblebee said:
I had one at SkyWest. He is the reason I developed the Professional Standards program there. He was fired before I could get it implemented. He was a real piece of work.
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How would it be done at a union company?
 
What is sadder, is that it took the company so long to get rid of him and that he was even accepted into employment in the first place with a history of issues at previous employers, let alone promoted. Safety is the primary concern. Period. Then comes the consideration of your flight and/or cabin crew (if you have cabin crew in what ever your ops you are flying under) Before CRM ever came about, I always considered both crews to be a part and a very integral and necessary part of the entire team (along with ground crews, etc.) that it took to make any flight a success, safe and a pleasant flight.

IMO, it has always been the Captain's job to be a mentor, set the standards and uphold them, be the example, and allow the F/O's (and way back in time the the FE's) to have their input, ask questions, communicate, make suggestions, put forth their ideas and allow the F/O's to fly the aircraft/make some landing, learn all the aspects of a particular aircraft, be comfortable asking questions and trying something not so familiar, etc., gain experience and confidence and continue to learn and become better pilots. The F/O needs to learn how to handle whatever situations may arise with the aircraft or in the cabin, be it with the pax or equipment or the Cabin Crew or whatever. They need to be given the opportunity to do so from time to time, depending on what the issue is, with your input and guidance. The F/O and the Captain need and should also feel open to discuss any issues with the flight afterwards as well and understand how things could have been done differently or why something occurred the way it did, etc. It is also the Captain's role to oversee every aspect of the flight and it it is always, always HIS responsibility for what goes on in the flight deck during the operation of any flight. To push the blame on others, is simply shirking your own duties and responsibilities.

You need to have MUTUAL respect for one another. The F/O didn't get to where he or she is at because they fell out of the sky one day and were suddenly placed into a jet nor did the Captain gain his experience overnight either. Everyone should have something to contribute. It is the Captain's duty to make the final decisions, but that is not always done and should never be always done, without input and cooperation. Explanations of a Captain's decisions are important (sometimes barring an emergency- that may not always be possible). There also needs to be some level of mutual trust and again, respect.

There are million little tricks and techniques that any decent, experienced Captain should be passing on to their crews along the way. This is what makes flights more interesting, positive and meaningful. Who the hell wants to spend hours on end with a dictator or a control freak? It should be enjoyable and instructional (two way dialogues) and a positive experience for everyone. I certainly have flown with my share of incompetent Captains and F/O's (either in their personalities/mind sets/attitudes and or piloting skills - sometimes both - that is the worst of two bad worlds-ugh) but that is thankfully, in the small minority and they are generally weeded out eventually. (in most cases)

No one, even the most seasoned Captain should ever be beyond learning and updating, it's a continual process. They should also never forget that they themselves were once a lower time, not as experienced F/O sitting to the right, wanting to do their best, hoping for a good experience and a long, happy and productive career.
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
How would it be done at a union company?
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Generally speaking, just like everywhere else. If I'm with a crewmember that isn't performing or being a threat to safety with his/her attitude, I'll just be frank and lay the cards on the table.

If they don't respond, but it's not necessarily a safety issue, I'll chat with some of my colleagues who are captains who I highly respect to cross-check that it's just not my attitude or skewed perspective.

If it's a safety issue, I'll offer to remove myself from the trip which will usually straighten up deviant behavior. If that doesn't help, I'm gone! :)

Which is another issue, always have a couple of people who you highly respect that have been around longer than you, which you can rely on. Nothing beats a calm, grey-haired "old sage" on speed-dial. The old wise coonhound underneath the porch.
 
Derg said:
Generally speaking, just like everywhere else. If I'm with a crewmember that isn't performing or being a threat to safety with his/her attitude, I'll just be frank and lay the cards on the table.

If they don't respond, but it's not necessarily a safety issue, I'll chat with some of my colleagues who are captains who I highly respect to cross-check that it's just not my attitude or skewed perspective.

If it's a safety issue, I'll offer to remove myself from the trip which will usually straighten up deviant behavior. If that doesn't help, I'm gone! :)

Which is another issue, always have a couple of people who you highly respect that have been around longer than you, which you can rely on. Nothing beats a calm, grey-haired "old sage" on speed-dial. The old wise coonhound underneath the porch.
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But if the company even went to release because of safety wouldn't the union step in and push fur additional training or something instead of release?
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
But if the company even went to release because of safety wouldn't the union step in and push fur additional training or something instead of release?
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Maybe. Maybe not. I think the biggest misconception about the whole "union protecting jobs" thing is that often times a Union isn't trying to protect an obvious mavericks job but rather protect the discipline/termination process. I'll use an example from where I'm at. Years ago we had a captain who was fired for getting it on with his (then) girlfriend in the galley of an airplane while it was at the gate between flights. They were caught by a gate agent who reported it and the guy was terminated. The union fought to get him his job back, not because what he did was ok but rather because the WAY the company handled the matter didn't follow the steps that were clearly laid out in the contract relating to the discipline/termination process.

In the safety/general dbaggery cases (like the one the OP mentions), a union may protest a termination of the guy was never offered additional safety training or officially talked to about his attitude, but if the company followed all the steps in the CBA there isn't much a union can or will do.
 
ComplexHiAv8r said:
But if the company even went to release because of safety wouldn't the union step in and push fur additional training or something instead of release?
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Sure, there is a process.

Generally speaking, if you're a consistent screw-up, you'll probably be given a line check to see what's up. That line check, if it doesn't turn out too well, will probably result in re-training. If re-training doesn't go well... Zombies.

The problem is that a lot of the true asses know how to 'play the game'.
 
mikecweb said:
This industry is teeming with Dbags. In all honesty it's probably 5-10% but since they are so memorable it seems like there are more of them. Most frustrating part is they always seem a way to find a job.
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Indeed. I agree with and respect the seniority based upgrade, but when you're flying with those 5-10% it really makes you wish there was a fair way to do merit based upgrades.
 
At least the Captain was the one who got canned... In these situations it's usually the good guys who just get fed up and end up quitting.
 
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