And the bar attempts to go a notch lower.

[Ian_J]

Not as many people, but similar size unit, yes. Just like the nomenclature your Cavalry units use.

Then again, you should know that from your Command and General Staff College studies, mister.....

No, I know - just making sure because it is unbelievable you don't have a staff.

 

[MikeD]

No, I know - just making sure because it is unbelievable you don't have a staff.

At the unit level, not anymore there isn't. There's usually maybe one person who does IT type of stuff, but the only admin person is usually only the CO's secretary anymore. In a fighter squadron, for example, the only enlisted people are the flight ops desk personnel, maybe an IT person, the life support people, possibly a First Sergeant to watch over these few people, and thats about it. Obviously an airlift or helo squadron will have enlisted aircrew members around, but they have their own primary job to do; yet like anyone else, have additional duties for the unit, as well as having to do their own admin crap mostly.

 

[USMCmech]

I think that a lot of you guys are missing the part where he's a contract employee, not salaried. The amount of flying he gets drops off a ton, and his paycheck is suffering. He calls the owners up to see what can be done, and the owner basically offers him a part time job (doing something unrelated to aviation) in order to keep bread on his table. I don't see an issue with that scenario at all.

Yeh, I don't see the problem with some collateral duties in addition to flying. The only qualifier is that this agreement needs to be understood at day one.

 

[cmill]

I think that a lot of you guys are missing the part where he's a contract employee, not salaried. The amount of flying he gets drops off a ton, and his paycheck is suffering. He calls the owners up to see what can be done, and the owner basically offers him a part time job (doing something unrelated to aviation) in order to keep bread on his table. I don't see an issue with that scenario at all.

Not exactly.

I called up asking if they had a full time flying job for me, and they told me to come in to talk about it. I show up and he points me towards a saw and walks off without even telling me what I'm going to get paid.

The issue isn't so much me being insulted by being offered a non aviation job, it's trying to get these guys to see the value of a pilot. Their flying hasn't dropped off, it's just that they leased the plane as a favor to a guy who's 50 was down for mx. He takes the plane for 10 days at a time. And I get screwed. This is the first weekend we've had the plane back and I get a 4 day trip.

My guys fly the plane plenty, and I'm not exactly going hungry. I told them that if this was going to become a normal thing, going weeks without a pay check, then I would have to find a steady one. Their response was to put me in a wood shop.

I'll put it like this: I'm not going to be the ass hole in a brand new flight department that sets the precedent of having the pilots build cabinets.

 

[SteveCostello]

I'll put it like this: I'm not going to be the ass hole in a brand new flight department that sets the precedent of having the pilots build cabinets.

Principles. This man has them.

 

[USMCmech]

Not exactly.

I called up asking if they had a full time flying job for me, and they told me to come in to talk about it. I show up and he points me towards a saw and walks off without even telling me what I'm going to get paid.

Yeah, that's BS.

 

[MikeD]

I'll put it like this: I'm not going to be the ass hole in a brand new flight department that sets the precedent of having the pilots build cabinets.

Im confused here. In your original post, you said you'd be working on the saw, then a few posts later, you corrected yourself and said they wanted you to manage the shop...not necessarily be the unskilled labor. Which one did it end up being?

 

[cmill]

Im confused here. In your original post, you said you'd be working on the saw, then a few posts later, you corrected yourself and said they wanted you to manage the shop...not necessarily be the unskilled labor. Which one did it end up being?

Thats originally what he told me at the shop. Once I walked away he called and said that there had been a "misunderstanding," and that he wanted me to manage the shop, whatever that means. We just got back from a trip this weekend and we didn't talk about it, so im not sure whats going on now.

 

[MikeD]

Thats originally what he told me at the shop. Once I walked away he called and said that there had been a "misunderstanding," and that he wanted me to manage the shop, whatever that means. We just got back from a trip this weekend and we didn't talk about it, so im not sure whats going on now.

While it sounds like you wouldn't want to work on the saw or build cabinets, and as you say you aren't trained to anyway, are you opposed to the management gig?

 

[SteveC]

...and we didn't talk about it, so im not sure whats going on now.

When not done correctly, communication can escalate what should be simple issues into major problems. Don't forget that good communications requires both parties, so make sure that you're doing your part as well. Be proactive in bringing up the topic and voice what you "think" that they are saying to you and I'll bet you'll be surprised to learn that you guys are not on the same page at all. Just a guess based on what I see from hundreds of miles away.

 

[Firebird2XC]

You guys would HATE military aviation.

No joke. In addition to being a wrench turner by trade, I was also a flightcrew member, a medical assistant, and if need be, a trigger puller.

Before I was a made a crewdog, I managed all the HAZMAT products and supplies from cradle to grave for the entire maintenance operation... in addition to my other tasks.

 

[cmill]

While it sounds like you wouldn't want to work on the saw or build cabinets, and as you say you aren't trained to anyway, are you opposed to the management gig?

Not opposed to that at all, but trying to get details out of these guys is like trying to nail water to a tree.

When not done correctly, communication can escalate what should be simple issues into major problems. Don't forget that good communications requires both parties, so make sure that you're doing your part as well. Be proactive in bringing up the topic and voice what you "think" that they are saying to you and I'll bet you'll be surprised to learn that you guys are not on the same page at all. Just a guess based on what I see from hundreds of miles away.

I completely agree with you, but this is just kind of par for the course for these guys. I KNOW we're not on the same page, but I really don't think they're interested in doing anything about it right now. As far as they're concerned the plane is always ready when they need it, so they really have no incentive to change anything.

 

[MikeD]

Not opposed to that at all, but trying to get details out of these guys is like trying to nail water to a tree. .

Is that par for the course with these guys, or only as it relates to this situation? It would be one of those things that would make me wonder.......

 

[cmill]

Is that par for the course with these guys, or only as it relates to this situation? It would be one of those things that would make me wonder.......

Par for the course all around for these guys. No planning for anything, at all. That doesnt bother me so much, it comes with the territory.

They're new to the whole aviation thing. They started out with a baron about 18 months ago and are already in the falcon. I think a lot of this is growing pains. I know the owner isn't on a tight budget, or short on cash, its just a matter of trying to get him broken into the whole airplane deal.

 

[killbilly]

Par for the course all around for these guys. No planning for anything, at all. That doesnt bother me so much, it comes with the territory.

They're new to the whole aviation thing. They started out with a baron about 18 months ago and are already in the falcon. I think a lot of this is growing pains. I know the owner isn't on a tight budget, or short on cash, its just a matter of trying to get him broken into the whole airplane deal.

As sort of a business-minded guy, my jaw sorta goes slack when I hear the bolded bits above.

What kind of business is he in?

 

[GypsyPilot]

No joke. In addition to being a wrench turner by trade, I was also a flightcrew member, a medical assistant, and if need be, a trigger puller.

Before I was a made a crewdog, I managed all the HAZMAT products and supplies from cradle to grave for the entire maintenance operation... in addition to my other tasks.

No joke. In addition to being a wrench turner by trade, I was also a flightcrew member, a medical assistant, and if need be, a trigger puller.

Before I was a made a crewdog, I managed all the HAZMAT products and supplies from cradle to grave for the entire maintenance operation... in addition to my other tasks.

Were you also a contract employee without a steady paycheck? How about told to do jobs with no training?

I'm thinking military aviation has absolutely nothing to do with the situation the OP brought up. I was in a similar deal a few years ago... Was offered a job with a promise of $50k salary within the year, but started at $35k (light jet SIC). After the first year, I was asking about the pay increase and the owner brought me in. Said he had a friend with an engineering department, and he would be glad to ask him if I could do some part time work (I used to be an engineer). Yeah, no thanks!

 

[Firebird2XC]

Were you also a contract employee without a steady paycheck? How about told to do jobs with no training?

I'm thinking military aviation has absolutely nothing to do with the situation the OP brought up. I was in a similar deal a few years ago... Was offered a job with a promise of $50k salary within the year, but started at $35k (light jet SIC). After the first year, I was asking about the pay increase and the owner brought me in. Said he had a friend with an engineering department, and he would be glad to ask him if I could do some part time work (I used to be an engineer). Yeah, no thanks!

... just commenting on the difference in takes between the military and civilian segments. As for 'no training'... the military invented the phrase, "I don't care, just make it happen..."

 

[GX]

It just seems that there are too many business owners who aren't willing to have the "difficult" conversations.

Firebird2XC I think that the biggest concern here is the lack of guarantee on an income. In the military, one, generally, isn't too concerned about walking in one day and getting canned. The contract is signed, and there's not much one can do to terminate someone (outside of UCMJ, etc.). In this deal, without things being clearly communicated, there is a lack of understanding.

 

[Firebird2XC]

It just seems that there are too many business owners who aren't willing to have the "difficult" conversations.

Firebird2XC I think that the biggest concern here is the lack of guarantee on an income. In the military, one, generally, isn't too concerned about walking in one day and getting canned. The contract is signed, and there's not much one can do to terminate someone (outside of UCMJ, etc.). In this deal, without things being clearly communicated, there is a lack of understanding.

I'd agree with that. Business operators fail to realize that they're acting in bad faith when they promise one thing and then back out later. That's why an employment agreement is key. I'm honestly now sure that works elsewhere on an individual basis, but if I ever work for an individual as an individual, I'll be asking for my terms of employment in writing.