How many regional pilots can REALLY meet this requirement?

Roger Roger said:
The worst is when you don't realize until the adrenaline stops just exactly how dumb what you did was and how close you came to balling it up.

Or, uh, I imagine that's what it would be if I'd ever had one of those moments.
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The worst for...uhh, some guy I know, was an ungodly amount of ice in the "big six" going up the canal with a full load and crummy weather...a mutual friend was there.

You walk outside, smoke a cigarette, and try to figure out what the hell just happened.
 
I've scared myself flying freight once, enough to take a step back and evaluate things. It was entirely my fault to. Nothing bad happened, but it was one of those situations that should it have been elsewhere or some other circumstances it could have ended badly.
 
Roger Roger said:
The worst is when you don't realize until the adrenaline stops just exactly how dumb what you did was and how close you came to balling it up.

Or, uh, I imagine that's what it would be if I'd ever had one of those moments.
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I remember one night getting on the ground (VOR approach to a circle in the mountains in VT, with a thunderstorm bearing down on the field), shutting down and having a hard time filling out the logbook. Hands were shaking too much. I went into ops to call my times in, and almost threw up in the trash can. Really worked myself into a corner on that one...the missed approach out of the valley would have put me directly into the storm. Being that the airport is in a bowl, that was the only way out. And doing it while circling at night? Thankfully the lightning lit up the terrain. Man, I was an idiot.

Good times up in Rutland. jrh should steer clear. :)
 
jrh said:
Attitude and Heading Reference System. Pronounced "Ay-Harz." The plural would be pronounced the same. In other words, you had "two AHRS" or maybe "two AHRS units" but not "two AHRSes."

See, I'm an old school piston twin driver with new school glass cockpit expertise. BOOM! Virtually a god of aviation right here. Feel free to admire me, A-300.



But in all seriousness, nice post.
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Actually AHRS has nothing to do with "glass cockpit". It's for manufacturers to put in when they want something more reliable than spinning mechanical gyros, but are too cheap to put in an IRS.
 
Roger Roger said:
The worst is when you don't realize until the adrenaline stops just exactly how dumb what you did was and how close you came to balling it up.

Or, uh, I imagine that's what it would be if I'd ever had one of those moments.
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Or you could say to yourself "Wow, I'm pretty dang good! I survived and didn't bend any metal".
 
dasleben said:
I remember one night getting on the ground (VOR approach to a circle in the mountains in VT, with a thunderstorm bearing down on the field), shutting down and having a hard time filling out the logbook. Hands were shaking too much. I went into ops to call my times in, and almost threw up in the trash can.
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That. That's the feeling I'm talking about.
 
I remember one snowy/windy/icy night in BKL back in '86, I just landed and crawled to the terminal ramp as it was covered in ice that was blown as spray off the lake. BKL was a major check sorting hub for the Fed back in the day and the operator that had the contract diverted all their flights to CLE. A few minutes later, another competitors Aerostar comes sliding onto the ramp and nearly takes out his courier's van as he can't stop. He finds a patch of friction at the last moment and does a perfect pirouette right next to the van. He comes inside shortly thereafter and looks around for all the Fed contractor pilots. I said to him "nice parking job" and tell him all the other guys diverted to CLE. He said "looks like we are the only two with balls enough to fly into here tonight". OBTW, he is now at DELTA and is was/is a ALPA committee chairman.
 
A-300F4-622R said:
Actually AHRS has nothing to do with "glass cockpit". It's for manufacturers to put in when they want something more reliable than spinning mechanical gyros, but are too cheap to put in an IRS.
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I'm not sure I've ever seen a "glass cockpit" with mechanical gyros any where. Stby or back up gyro's next to the glass sure, but never heard of a mechanical gyro that drives a glass additiude indicator. Been wrong before though.

Edit: Also isn't an IRS a nav tool not a attitude indication instrument? Two different things.
 
PositionAndHold said:
I'm not sure I've ever seen a "glass cockpit" with mechanical gyros any where. Stby or back up gyro's next to the glass sure, but never heard of a mechanical gyro that drives a glass additiude indicator. Been wrong before though.

Edit: Also isn't an IRS a nav tool not a attitude indication instrument? Two different things.
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I've flown two types of jets with "glass cockpit" and mechanical gyros. Lots of others had glass and mechanical gyros. IRS is inertial reference system. It's basic function is to provide a stable platform and it can provide output to various systems for attitude and heading reference and navigation. I've flown jets with just IRS with no nav function at all. INS is inertial navigation system and ties the stable platform to a stand alone navigation computer. IRS typically provides outputs to drive attitude,heading and position information for FMCs.
 
dasleben said:
Good times up in Rutland. jrh should steer clear. :)
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Funny you should say this. RUT is one of the few bases I feel like might challenge me enough to keep from getting bored. I like the thought of needing to take a special checkride to fly there. By the time I had the seniority to hold it, I was already addicted to an easy life in the Midwest. Can't stand the thought of dealing with all the angry people in the Northeast now.

My LOA starts next week. If I ever come back maybe I'll bid RUT!

Back to the original message of scaring oneself--I can honestly say I've never scared myself with pax or students on board. It's when I'm by myself, flying my own plane or ferrying or something, that I occasionally pull a stupid pilot trick and kick myself for it after the fact.
 
jrh said:
Funny you should say this. RUT is one of the few bases I feel like might challenge me enough to keep from getting bored. I like the thought of needing to take a special checkride to fly there. By the time I had the seniority to hold it, I was already addicted to an easy life in the Midwest. Can't stand the thought of dealing with all the angry people in the Northeast now.

My LOA starts next week. If I ever come back maybe I'll bid RUT!

Back to the original message of scaring oneself--I can honestly say I've never scared myself with pax or students on board. It's when I'm by myself, flying my own plane or ferrying or something, that I occasionally pull a stupid pilot trick and kick myself for it after the fact.
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That's actually the reason I bid up there. I wanted to check a few boxes as a pilot, and I accomplished that goal. Most people don't stay long; I bid out after 5 months. The schedule and rapidly changing weather really wear you out. Actually, if we're all sitting around the bar telling lies in some random area of the world, I still tell Rutland stories. My stories now are more or less "So there I was, coming out of Asscrackistan, and all they had for crew meals was fish! Can you believe that?!" :)
 
Dugie8 said:
This stuff isn't hard and the skill isn't born of fire whilst flying SPIFR, inverted throught a thunderstorm, in icing conditions, with one engine failed while doing an NDB partial panel to an AM tower 2.65 NM from the end of the runway. It's born from being a professional and taking some pride at being good at what you do.
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Of course there are people born to fly and have no issues with hand flying. There are and will always be 121 pilots that are better pilots than I am. I believe SPIFR or some job where hand flying is used a lot provides a better foundation for a pilot to toss automation on top of. Being able to make stupid mistakes to learn from without risking anyone's life is a bonus.

Yes I know safety has been increased regardless of 250 hours wonders sitting in the right seat and even moving left, but is that because of pilot skill or increased automation reliability? Think of this as the typical Airbus vs Boeing argument. Do we use automation as a crutch for complex systems or do we simplify(refine skills) and then automate?

What you see from me is about Glass/FMS stuff when it comes to hiring. It makes flying easier and is really easy to learn. New pilots at a major would need to learn a new FMS system anyway as they likely will not have the same Make and/or Model as what they currently fly. I can understand asking for jet time, but in the end we see people from Commutair, Colgan, Great Lakes, Silver, Mesaba (Saab), Skywest (Bro), ect that have been able to get major airline gigs and pass the training with what seems like little issue.

In the end we have had two crashes in the last 4 years where automation failed and the pilots were just along for the ride. Could a good foundation in hand flying and even SPIFR help break the chain at some point? The data may not show it as "reliable" automation has certainly formed a nice bandaid on what could very well be a growing issue in the airline industry. I hope I'm wrong, but it may just take another accident for people to realize that pushing the big red button on the yoke isn't a bad thing while in crummy weather. Especially in ice.
 
UAL747400 said:
What is it about RUT that's so nutty? Honest question, not trying to be a asshat.
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I'm sure dasleben can give you all the details since he was actually based there, but the main issue is there's a lot of terrain surrounding the field. Take a look at the approach plates/ODPs.

Because of the climb gradients required, it makes for some interesting/complicated departure planning when one takes into account the possibility of an engine failure at various points in the climb, depending on the weather. The same can be said for arrivals. There are special procedures to follow in the event of an engine failure at various points on the approach. The company developed a "Single Engine Extraction Procedure" in the event of an engine failure while inside the FAF on the ILS, as there's no way to meet the original climb gradient required for a missed approach when flying on a single engine.

Plus, because of the terrain, I've heard winds can make things quite a handful at various points along the departure/arrival. Anything over 35 knots shuts the airport down as far as the company is concerned.

Pilots have to do ground school and annual line checks over all this stuff to be authorized to operate to or from RUT.
 
jrh said:
I'm sure dasleben can give you all the details since he was actually based there, but the main issue is there's a lot of terrain surrounding the field. Take a look at the approach plates/ODPs.

Because of the climb gradients required, it makes for some interesting/complicated departure planning when one takes into account the possibility of an engine failure at various points in the climb, depending on the weather. The same can be said for arrivals. There are special procedures to follow in the event of an engine failure at various points on the approach. The company developed a "Single Engine Extraction Procedure" in the event of an engine failure while inside the FAF on the ILS, as there's no way to meet the original climb gradient required for a missed approach when flying on a single engine.

Plus, because of the terrain, I've heard winds can make things quite a handful at various points along the departure/arrival. Anything over 35 knots shuts the airport down as far as the company is concerned.

Pilots have to do ground school and annual line checks over all this stuff to be authorized to operate to or from RUT.
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All this is true...though, I was there when it was non-precision only (no ILS yet). :D

Weather changed very frequently, and quickly. You almost never had PIREPs from out in front of you, since you were usually the only one doing BOS-RUT during weather days. Single-engine extraction procedure aside, I always had an unofficial emergency escape plan in my back pocket, which was the RUT 350 radial down the valley and out over the river. You routinely couldn't meet single-engine climb gradients on takeoff, but being a 9 passenger piston, it wasn't legally required anyway. With crappy weather radars and lifting action off the hills, thunderstorms could very well come seemingly out of nowhere as you're pushing past the FAF on the approach. Knowledge of the surrounding terrain is key! You may very well have to use that knowledge to bail out of an approach before the MAP (hint, always turn west!).

Incidentally, I tested the limit of that 35 knot wind restriction once. Ended up diverting to LEB after two go-arounds for some pretty serious windshear. I would say 25-30 should be the max, and that depends on direction. Mountain wave is a big factor.

Anyway, I finished my stint there with the firm belief that Cape Air didn't belong there. The guy who took over my line did about 5 months as well, and bid down to LNS where it was nice and flat. :D

Great experience, but really not a place for a 402. I'm told that the predecessor, Colgan, had trouble there with their 1900s even.
 
A-300F4-622R said:
I've flown two types of jets with "glass cockpit" and mechanical gyros. Lots of others had glass and mechanical gyros. IRS is inertial reference system. It's basic function is to provide a stable platform and it can provide output to various systems for attitude and heading reference and navigation. I've flown jets with just IRS with no nav function at all. INS is inertial navigation system and ties the stable platform to a stand alone navigation computer. IRS typically provides outputs to drive attitude,heading and position information for FMCs.
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When say you've flown glass with mechanical gyro's are you saying there was a box with a gyro in it some where and used some sort of analog-digital interface to translate the mechanics of the gyro to some thing digital to be displayed on a glass panel? All the stuff I've flown has been either straight steam gauges or glass with an AHRS(though some of the glass had round dials for backup). That seems like soooo much extra work just for a fancy glass attitude indicator.

Learn some thing new every day. When I think of IRS I think INS, so I guess that's where I get that from. Makes since if you're going to have a laser ring gyro, you mine as well drive an attitude indicator.
 
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