And the bar attempts to go a notch lower.

Ian J said:
You guys would HATE military aviation.
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You've flown civilian aviation, though, and know it is MUCH different than military life. How would you have felt at Airnet if during our "productivity sits" in LCK, they had us clean toilets to keep us busy, instead of resting? I know they had us help with the sort a couple of times, but that was during training (for us, anyways). Or, during your 2 hour wait in TEB, they have you marshaling, and fueling the other incoming planes?

There is a HUGE difference between the "needs of the services" and what people do for their Evals vs. some company trying to get more out of their pilots when the pilots should be hired full time to actually manage the plane they were hired for. Instead, they are asked to operate/manage a saw.

If I was hired by a company and they said we need you in the office to keep track of maintenance, crew schedules, and all of the other things a flight department needs, that is one thing. To just do busy work to pass the time when you could actually be working on aviation related items for the company is asinine.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
I'm a database guy, so don't take this the wrong way. It is a super useful skill to have, even if it isn't your day job. I get called ALL THE TIME to fix slow applications. Everyone always blames the database, so I get called. The problem is almost always the application, but being able to look at multiple areas (OS/DB/Middleware/code/network) is a far more effective strategy when it comes to complex systems. Most people try to fix what they know, when the low hanging fruit is the thing they don't know.

When the only tool you have is a hammer, you start seeing a lot of nails...
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This is so very true. Experience has taught me - at least in the voice world, that most of the problems we see are caused by the User not using the phone, software or system correctly. Most of the time it's functioning as designed. Correcting their behavior solves a lot of problems.

The REAL pain comes when you have to go back to Product Management and tell them that they designed it wrong to begin with...where they then blame Sales for not managing expectations.

It's a lovely little ouroboros of pain. :)
 
Stone Cold said:
You've flown civilian aviation, though, and know it is MUCH different than military life. How would you have felt at Airnet if during our "productivity sits" in LCK, they had us clean toilets to keep us busy, instead of resting? I know they had us help with the sort a couple of times, but that was during training (for us, anyways). Or, during your 2 hour wait in TEB, they have you marshaling, and fueling the other incoming planes?

There is a HUGE difference between the "needs of the services" and what people do for their Evals vs. some company trying to get more out of their pilots when the pilots should be hired full time to actually manage the plane they were hired for. Instead, they are asked to operate/manage a saw.

If I was hired by a company and they said we need you in the office to keep track of maintenance, crew schedules, and all of the other things a flight department needs, that is one thing. To just do busy work to pass the time when you could actually be working on aviation related items for the company is asinine.
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No argument at all from me on what you wrote. Oh, except the "what people do for their evals" part. Not sure how it is in other services, but in mine pilots have additional duties because the work simply needs to be done.

I'm just hoping those who desire to fly for the military are not the same ones who say they don't want to do office work.
 
Ian J said:
No argument at all from me on what you wrote. Oh, except the "what people do for their evals" part. Not sure how it is in other services, but in mine pilots have additional duties because the work simply needs to be done.

I'm just hoping those who desire to fly for the military are not the same ones who say they don't want to do office work.
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Agreed. And, keep in mind, my reference to evals is based on my experience at the black shoe (read: ships) enlisted levels of the Navy. There were things that were required to do just to keep things running, and there were those positions for eval boosting.
 
Stone Cold said:
Agreed. And, keep in mind, my reference to evals is based on my experience at the black shoe (read: ships) enlisted levels of the Navy. There were things that were required to do just to keep things running, and there were those positions for eval boosting.
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Ahhh, how I miss Collateral Duties....
 
I think that a lot of you guys are missing the part where he's a contract employee, not salaried. The amount of flying he gets drops off a ton, and his paycheck is suffering. He calls the owners up to see what can be done, and the owner basically offers him a part time job (doing something unrelated to aviation) in order to keep bread on his table. I don't see an issue with that scenario at all.
 
SteveC said:
I think that a lot of you guys are missing the part where he's a contract employee, not salaried. The amount of flying he gets drops off a ton, and his paycheck is suffering. He calls the owners up to see what can be done, and the owner basically offers him a part time job (doing something unrelated to aviation) in order to keep bread on his table. I don't see an issue with that scenario at all.
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I guess I missed that the first time I read it. My impression (wrongly) was that he was trying to get on full time, since they were paying him more with the daily rate. I missed the part, somehow, of his flying dropping off, and that being their suggestion on how to make up money.

As always, you are correct, Steve! :)
 
SteveCostello said:
That's the thing, though... you reach a point in your career where "learning a new skill" (especially one that has absolutely nothing to do with your current career) is actually career dilution. And in this line of work, the last thing a pilot needs is something to dilute his/her skill set. Building on that skill set with related activities? Bonus. Good stuff. Being asked to cut wood when you aren't flying? Silly. That's just IMHO, and I get that other people don't agree with that. 10 years ago, I might have been one of them.
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So his flying skills would go kaput because he was doing something other than flying? He would be sitting around doing nothing otherwise, that wouldn't dilute his skills? Unless people sit around playing MSFS ad running through flows all of their free time.
 
pullup said:
So his flying skills would go kaput because he was doing something other than flying? He would be sitting around doing nothing otherwise, that wouldn't dilute his skills? Unless people sit around playing MSFS ad running through flows all of their free time.
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We're not supposed to sit around playing MSFS all the time?
 
pullup said:
So his flying skills would go kaput because he was doing something other than flying? He would be sitting around doing nothing otherwise, that wouldn't dilute his skills? Unless people sit around playing MSFS ad running through flows all of their free time.
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Agreed. I actually build cabinets in my spare time and I'm pretty sure it's not making me any worse of a pilot. Perhaps it even improves my manual dexterity.

I do feel like the boss man was actually trying to help in this case, and I don't see it as lowering the bar. He has no flying to give, but he does have a cabinet shop. He's also willing to give you a job in this shop even though you apparently have no experience as a carpenter. I suppose you can be insulted if you see fit, but I would be happy to still be able to feed my family. Maybe the flying will return to normal soon, and if not at least you have an income while you look for something better.
 
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GX said:
Great. At least they asked. And he had the choice to clean toilets, or not. And if they had just called the engineer into the office and said, "We're not generating the revenue necessary to keep you. We need to let you go, effective today. We're sorry. There's some paperwork in HR awaiting you, and there's a box for the articles in your desk. We wish you the best. If you need a reference, we'd be happy to vouch for your work." he would be bitching for getting laid off/fired/terminated/out of income.
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Been there, done that, seen grown men cry.... 8(
 
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Stone Cold said:
To just do busy work to pass the time when you could actually be working on aviation related items for the company is asinine.
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Military aviation described perfectly! :)

Ian J said:
No argument at all from me on what you wrote. Oh, except the "what people do for their evals" part. Not sure how it is in other services, but in mine pilots have additional duties because the work simply needs to be done.

I'm just hoping those who desire to fly for the military are not the same ones who say they don't want to do office work.
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What's changed in the military was much of the work that was done before by Commander's Support Staff personnel in a unit, has been "transferred" to the people already doing their own mission, ever since the whole concept of "do more with less" came out in the early 1990s. I remember when there used to actually be staff in a flying squadron that would handle such things as TDY orders generation and processing, review of efficiency reports, and any of the other myriad of administrative crap that the guy trying to stay proficient in his own job of warfighting, and everything that goes with that, shouldn't have to be burdened with.
 
MikeD said:
Military aviationdescribed perfectly! :)



What's changed in the military was much of the work that was done before by Commander's Support Staff personnel in a unit, has been "transferred" to the people already doing their own mission, ever since the whole concept of "do more with less" came out in the early 1990s. I remember when there used to actually be staff in a flying squadron that would handle such things as TDY orders generation and processing, review of efficiency reports, and any of the other myriad of administrative crap that the guy trying to stay proficient in his own job of warfighting, and everything that goes with that, shouldn't have to be burdened with.
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The Air Force doesn't have a Squadron level staff? Our line pilots don't do TDY orders, review efficiency reports, or anything like that. Most WO additional duties are as simple as maintaining a binder (not full of women, unfortunately). Stuff like making sure we a FOD program, PPE program, etc. Other are tracked positions like TACOPs or Safety which require some additional work. And then there are real small things - I need a guy to manage the keys - I need a guy to order flight pubs from supply, etc. Our guys don't do anything so in depth that it even comes close to interfering with proficiency in the aircraft.
 
Ian J said:
The Air Force doesn't have a Squadron level staff? Our line pilots don't do TDY orders, review efficiency reports, or anything like that. Most WO additional duties are as simple as maintaining a binder (not full of women, unfortunately). Stuff like making sure we a FOD program, PPE program, etc. Other are tracked positions like TACOPs or Safety which require some additional work. And then there are real small things - I need a guy to manage the keys - I need a guy to order flight pubs from supply, etc. Our guys don't do anything so in depth that it even comes close to interfering with proficiency in the aircraft.
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The line squadrons, not anymore. The commander will have his secretary, and thats usually it. Everything else in the AF has been given back to the member to take care of. DTS travel system, OERs/OPRs/EPRs, and other non-flying related stuff are taken care of by line pilots, with more depending on their position in the unit. In the AF, though, flying is and always has been a secondary duty for all intents and purposes; your officer job and education/PME has always been first; regardless of what the glossy ads show.
 
MikeD said:
The line squadrons, not anymore. The commander will have his secretary, and thats usually it. Everything else in the AF has been given back to the member to take care of. DTS travel system, OERs/OPRs/EPRs, and other non-flying related stuff are taken care of by line pilots, with more depending on their position in the unit. In the AF, though, flying is and always has been a secondary duty for all intents and purposes; your officer job and education/PME has always been first; regardless of what the glossy ads show.
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Wait... so you're saying it's not like Top Gun? :aghast:
 
MikeD said:
The line squadrons, not anymore. The commander will have his secretary, and thats usually it. Everything else in the AF has been given back to the member to take care of. DTS travel system, OERs/OPRs/EPRs, and other non-flying related stuff are taken care of by line pilots, with more depending on their position in the unit. In the AF, though, flying is and always has been a secondary duty for all intents and purposes; your officer job and education/PME has always been first; regardless of what the glossy ads show.
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Just to make sure we're talking the same thing, a Squadron in like an Army Battalion, right? O-5 Command and a couple hundred people, right?
 
Ian J said:
Just to make sure we're talking the same thing, a Squadron in like an Army Battalion, right? O-5 Command and a couple hundred people, right?
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Not as many people, but similar size unit, yes. Just like the nomenclature your Cavalry units use.

Then again, you should know that from your Command and General Staff College studies, mister.....:D :D
 
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