Bad Day for the AWACS

That connect from the boom wasn't anything abnormal... In fact, looked like the standard first plug disconnect.

Problem is, there was never a "pre-contact...stabilized and ready" by the E-3. You can see that the boomer attempts a plug, even though the E-3 still has some good forward motion going. You then see when the boomer is committed as he plugs the E-3, and the E-3 is rapidly shoving the boom into the retraction stop.......boomer was lucky in barely having any time to be able to get a disconnect. That shove or the rapid boom raising could've caused something. But the 135 never should've attempted the plug in the first place, from what I see.
 
MikeD said:
Problem is, there was never a "pre-contact...stabilized and ready" by the E-3. You can see that the boomer attempts a plug, even though the E-3 still has some good forward motion going. You then see when the boomer is committed as he plugs the E-3, and the E-3 is rapidly shoving the boom into the retraction stop.......boomer was lucky in barely having any time to be able to get a disconnect. That shove or the rapid boom raising could've caused something. But the 135 never should've attempted the plug in the first place, from what I see.

Agree. However, wouldn't be the only time I've heard "cleared to contact" in the climb. I'm sure the boom was telling the pilot to descend prior to punching him off, but the disconnect and separation started normally. Anything that happened after the separation was a result of something on the tanker.

I would think the bow wave is not the problem either. With the two aircraft being the same size, the bow wave is a big deal. However, again, the contact was normal. Any bow wave effects would have been present as the receiver entered the contact region. If the bow wave did cause a mistrim, it would have been in a nose down condition, but again, would have caused the AP disconnect prior to the separation. Once separated, the bow wave would have been negligible.

To this day, this is the one evolution I hawk pilots on. Every 3P has interesting landings, but I've never been scared in the flare. I sure have had my share of break aways and have even witnessed a tanker AP kicking off once or twice. I will say I'm lucky enough to not have had anything as bad as the video, however.
 
Agree. However, wouldn't be the only time I've heard "cleared to contact" in the climb. I'm sure the boom was telling the pilot to descend prior to punching him off, but the disconnect and separation started normally. Anything that happened after the separation was a result of something on the tanker.

"Cleared to contact", while still in a climb or approaching is one thing, but I wouldn't think that'd be the case here in this video where there is obvious good forward and up motion going, versus just "drifting into the plug", if you know what I mean. But again, Im also judging this from zero airspeed and zero G, so I don't know what was going on in the -135s boom pod.

I would think the bow wave is not the problem either. With the two aircraft being the same size, the bow wave is a big deal. However, again, the contact was normal. Any bow wave effects would have been present as the receiver entered the contact region. If the bow wave did cause a mistrim, it would have been in a nose down condition, but again, would have caused the AP disconnect prior to the separation. Once separated, the bow wave would have been negligible.

Agree. Doesn't seem to be a problem here, as it would be noticed.

To this day, this is the one evolution I hawk pilots on. Every 3P has interesting landings, but I've never been scared in the flare. I sure have had my share of break aways and have even witnessed a tanker AP kicking off once or twice. I will say I'm lucky enough to not have had anything as bad as the video, however.

I can still remember my first A/R ever. Single seat jet, there was no one to watch over me in my plane; just the IP over in the observation position flying form.

The one I've heard is interesting in A/R is the B-52, what with it's delays in control input vs when the input takes effect, due to the spoilerons vice ailerons.
 
My first big wing jet tanking (had previously done KC-130J in the RAG) was entertaining. Skipper was hanging out in stbd obs probably laughing at my first few feeble attempts at staying in the basket. I remember him saying, "everyone always says that you just fly form off the tanker and don't look at the basket......thats Bull, how are you going to put the probe in the basket if you arent looking at the damned basket?" and the other one "guys who joust with the rudder bring the basket home with them" :)
 
My first big wing jet tanking (had previously done KC-130J in the RAG) was entertaining. Skipper was hanging out in stbd obs probably laughing at my first few feeble attempts at staying in the basket. I remember him saying, "everyone always says that you just fly form off the tanker and don't look at the basket......thats Bull, how are you going to put the probe in the basket if you arent looking at the damned basket?" and the other one "guys who joust with the rudder bring the basket home with them" :)

While probe and drogue A/R is definitely challenging, boom A/R isn't as easy as one would think, as it has its own set of challenges that go with it.
 
Hacker any possibility that the initial bang from the AWAC trying to attach could have caused an autopilot disconnect?

As MikeD said, I honestly don't know.

I have seen KC-135s have autopilot disconnect issues that, to an outsider, appear to be related to connecting and disconnecting from the boom, but I have no idea if that is actually what's going on.

That connect from the boom wasn't anything abnormal... In fact, looked like the standard first plug disconnect.

Didn't appear like a flow check or an initial procedural disconnect. Looked to me like there's a combination of forward and up momentum that is getting near the forward limit on the boom, so the boomer disconnects and quickly swings the boom up and out of the way.
 
So what's the procedure for this regarding AP usage? Are both aircraft using the autopilot?


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You can get autopilot disconnects that result in out of trim conditions in either direction, and even an autopilot disconnect where the airplane is perfectly trimmed... depends on how the autopilot disconnect occurred.

Here's how that works: As receivers approach the tanker, the autopilot or the tanker pilot flying autopilot off A/R needs to put in nose up trim. This is because the "bow wave" off of the receiver reduces the downwash on the tail of tanker, reducing the angle of attack of the horizontal stabilizer and hence reducing the tail-down/nose up force from the tail. I haven't seen any math on the subject, but I believe the effect goes something like the square of the distance from receiver to tanker, because the change from 50' ('pre-contact' or 'astern' position) to 40' feels much less than the difference from 10' to 'contact'. And once in contact, when the receiver is high or forward in the envelope, that typically requires an additional click of trim (autopilot off) compared to a receiver in the perfect position (30 degrees elevation and 12' boom extension). With the autopilot on, the autopilot puts in, or takes out that trim as required.

The tanker autopilot applies trim at approximately 1/7th the speed of the pilot's trim switch. So if the receiver closes too fast, the autopilot will be unable to trim nose up fast enough to keep up with the change, and when it gets out of trim it gives up and clicks off. This leaves the tanker pilot with a yoke that's about 30lbs. out of trim in the nose down direction.

If on the other hand, the receiver was in position and quickly moves either AFT or DOWN in the envelope, then they will quickly reduce the bow wave effect and the airplane will be out of trim in the nose up position. If that happens quick enough, the autopilot gives up and leaves the pilot with about a 30lbs. yoke force in the nose up direction. This typically occurs during a break away, especially with a heavy receiver. The autopilot clicks off and the tanker climbs.

The last possibility is that the autopilot has been keeping up just fine, but has some kind of an internal data malfunction or issue and clicks off with the airplane in trim. I've had lots of the other two versions, mostly disconnects in the nose up direction, but I've only had this one once. Our book reads that at any autopilot malfunction when the receiver is closer than 'precontact,' the pilot should 'consider initiating a break-away.' Most guys read this to mean that a break-away is not absolutely required on every autopilot disconnect, so if the autopilot kicks off but everything is perfectly trimmed, guys will instead tell the boom to do a disconnect and back out the receiver, rather than saying the b-word.


The last effect that I haven't yet mentioned is the boom itself. The boom acts like a control surface, except that the boom operator moves is all over the place without telling the tanker pilot. In general, the perfect position is 30 degrees down elevation, and 0 degrees left and right. In that position, I basically set the throttles and have the plane trimmed up and feel really little to nothing from the boom itself (but of course feel the receiver bow wave if he's present). This position requires the boom operator to hold some weight in his hands because the boom does not trim off completely. If the boom operator is lazy and lets the boom hang at near the bottom elevation limit (40 degrees down elevation), then there is more drag on the airplane and it will gradually slow down. If the boom operator raises the boom to near the upper limit (20 degrees) then the airplane will have less drag on it and gradually speed up. Both of these effects require a trim change as well, but the rate of change is typically a little slower than the change required by the receiver. And if the boom should move from the center to the side, then that acts like a rudder left or rudder right input on the tanker, and the autopilot typically responds with a coordinated and opposite rudder and yoke input in the other direction. A tanker pilot flying autopilot off, however, probably just puts in yoke to keep the wings level (i.e. opposite the deflection of the boom).

Autopilot off A/R is kind of like flying along with someone at the other set of controls constantly putting in random trim inputs and stepping on the rudder without telling you. Which can make it difficult to fly a nice stable platform. So if the receiver pilot sucks, the tanker pilot's job gets harder and he will fly worse. And of course, if the tanker pilot sucks, the receiver pilot's job will get harder and he will fly worse. So it can sometimes be tough to assign blame on autopilot off AR, because it's a game of 'screw your buddy.' Autopilot ON, however, blame automatically goes to the receiver pilot or perhaps the boom operator (at least in my eyes, but of course I'm biased), because all the tanker pilot controls is the thrust setting. Provided he's not moving the throttles during the closure from precontact to contact, and provided he only moves them very small amounts very slowly at other times, the receiver should not see any major movements from the tanker.

Oh, one last word about the tanker autopilot for the few guys out there who are receivers: for turns, we have a roll knob that commands a bank angle on the autopilot, but the knob has a detent at 0 degrees of bank. In order to command a turn, you have to get the roll knob out of the detent and then move the knob to the desired bank angle (which we typically try to limit to 15 degrees with heavy receivers). We'll sometimes take fighters to 30 degrees of bank if we have to, but usually we try to keep them at 15 also. Anyways, we try to put in that bank slowly and smoothly by turning the knob slowly... unfortunately, right as the knob leaves the detent, the autopilot puts in the first 3 degrees of bank or so pretty rapidly. So if you are in the back tanking, you will probably see a "head-fake" to the left and then the left turn come in nice and slow. Same thing in reverse as we roll out of the turn: nice and slow to about 3 degrees of bank or so and then a quick whip back to 0, with possibly an overcorrection to 1-2 degrees of the opposite direction bank that quickly disappears. I wish there were some way to prevent that, but unfortunately that's the crappy 1970's technology that we're stuck with.
 
Problem is, there was never a "pre-contact...stabilized and ready" by the E-3. You can see that the boomer attempts a plug, even though the E-3 still has some good forward motion going. You then see when the boomer is committed as he plugs the E-3, and the E-3 is rapidly shoving the boom into the retraction stop.......boomer was lucky in barely having any time to be able to get a disconnect. That shove or the rapid boom raising could've caused something. But the 135 never should've attempted the plug in the first place, from what I see.

Mike, from my eyes, it looked like the video began with the receiver at about 40 feet (from contact) with slight closure... so my guess is perhaps the video began after the precontact call. Most of the closure looked about right, i.e. from 40 feet to contact the speed looked good... but you are correct that he never arrested the closure rate as he hit approximately the contact position. So in general your diagnosis was pretty spot on, except for maybe the radio call piece. But I've seen a lot of AR from the back (any time I'm a spare pilot and the other 2 guys are flying), and from 40 feet to 5 feet short of contact (when you can see the shadow of the boom on the receptacle) they pretty much all look like that. In fact it is really common to hear a position correction call (forward 4 or back 2) immediately after contact because as guys try to stop their forward motion during the closure phase the airplane usually stops a couple of feet out of position either forward or back. I don't think that most boomers would have picked up anything wrong as they were making the contact, until just as the contact was made. Which was of course where these guys picked it up.

I think what probably caused the disconnect issue was the rapid raise of the boom (would have caused a slight increase in speed and a small but perceptible change in drag.. both producing a nose down force requiring more nose up trim) coupled by the correction from the E-3 after disconnect. I can't tell from the video if the E-3 pitched down at the disconnect and began a return to precontact, but that's what it looked like to me. From a forward position the autopilot would have had a lot of nose up trim, and as the receiver moved down it would have required much less nose up pretty quickly. So the first dip you see the receiver make was probably mostly receiver and probably the autopilot was still connected. As the autopilot disconnected, it probably did so in the nose up direction- remember nose up is the same as tail down. As that happens, the tanker's tail would have dropped pretty quickly, and that was probably where you saw the E-3 get high in the window. Right after that, the tanker pilot would have had his "oh •" moment and begun pushing forward on the yoke to keep the large altitude deviation from happening, and now both receiver and tanker pilots would probably be overcontrolling significantly... which would have been the up/down oscillations that followed.
 
So what's the procedure for this regarding AP usage? Are both aircraft using the autopilot?


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No. The receiver pilot is always hand flying. As for the tanker, the tanker pilot can either hand fly, or fly with the autopilot connected with altitude hold mode ON and all navigation modes OFF (i.e., heading select mode and 'navigation' mode, OFF). In this case, it appears that the autopilot was connected until shortly after disconnect. Basically, in this autopilot mode, the autopilot controls up/down completely, and holds 0 degrees of bank. The tanker pilot is still responsible for setting the throttles and making small throttle corrections when the tanker gets off speed. Generally guys don't make much correction at all until they are 7-10 knots off speed, since every correction the tanker makes requires the receiver to make about 3 corrections. You also try to wait until after the contact or before the precontact call to make your speed corrections. The book says that speed corrections should not be made while the receiver is closing to the contact position, and should be delayed until the receiver has stabilized at contact (for all you receivers who wonder why the tanker guy changes his throttles as soon as you've gotten stabilized, that's why). Personally, if I've gotten off speed during the closure, which happens a lot as the boom operator moves the boom up and down and the trim has changed all over the place, I won't really do anything until after I'm 10 knots off, and then I move 2 of the throttles .5% N1 at a time and let that take effect.

If a turn is required, you have to rotate the turn knob to the appropriate bank angle. See my post 2 above for the gripes about the silly roll knob.
 
The book says that speed corrections should not be made while the receiver is closing to the contact position, and should be delayed until the receiver has stabilized at contact (for all you receivers who wonder why the tanker guy changes his throttles as soon as you've gotten stabilized, that's why). Personally, if I've gotten off speed during the closure, which happens a lot as the boom operator moves the boom up and down and the trim has changed all over the place, I won't really do anything until after I'm 10 knots off, and then I move 2 of the throttles .5% N1 at a time and let that take effect.

Have never heard this one... Will definitely spread this info to my pilots. Typically, the speed doesn't matter though. I don't remember the last time I saw a tanker that was doing the speed schedule exactly. Lots of 10 knots over though. Once the pilot gives up on trying to hawk a speed and actually look at the tanker, it goes a lot smoother.

The .5% N1 throttle change goes on both ends... This seems to be the toughest part to learn for most of out new pilots. Every change of the throttles, they need to give it a couple seconds, then actually take half of whatever they did back out... Once the get the hang of that, tanking is easy. :cool:

Had one pilot, retired now, that would "wag" the wings to make the spoilers deploy to return to precontact. Wouldn't even touch the throttles... Most pilots DEFINITELY would not be able to pull it off, but it worked for him.
 
Had one pilot, retired now, that would "wag" the wings to make the spoilers deploy to return to precontact. Wouldn't even touch the throttles... Most pilots DEFINITELY would not be able to pull it off, but it worked for him.

Some of the old guys who came from Tomcats use this technique behind the boat in the Hornet. They call it "Hornet DLC", after the "direct lift control" system in the Tomcat, that apparently would do as you describe, to make glideslope corrections without corresponding changes in power. We don't have spoilers, but briefly wagging the wings has a similar effect.......I'm not nearly salty enough to try this however :)
 
fish314

As part of your initial training do you guys do some receiver "practice" just to get a feel for what it's like? Shoe on the other foot so to speak.

Not exactly. We don't do any receiver work in the KC-135 training, but you do some simulated A/R in the T-1 if you track to a tanker. It isn't exactly the same, though. You go up as a two-ship of T-1's and one guy plays tanker and the other guy receiver. You hold the contact position (even though there is no boom or anything) and practice turns and such. Then you switch roles and play tanker.
 
Not exactly. We don't do any receiver work in the KC-135 training, but you do some simulated A/R in the T-1 if you track to a tanker. It isn't exactly the same, though. You go up as a two-ship of T-1's and one guy plays tanker and the other guy receiver. You hold the contact position (even though there is no boom or anything) and practice turns and such. Then you switch roles and play tanker.
Gotcha. Thanks.
 
Have never heard this one... Will definitely spread this info to my pilots. Typically, the speed doesn't matter though. I don't remember the last time I saw a tanker that was doing the speed schedule exactly. Lots of 10 knots over though. Once the pilot gives up on trying to hawk a speed and actually look at the tanker, it goes a lot smoother.

The .5% N1 throttle change goes on both ends... This seems to be the toughest part to learn for most of out new pilots. Every change of the throttles, they need to give it a couple seconds, then actually take half of whatever they did back out... Once the get the hang of that, tanking is easy. :cool:

Yeah, holding the speed exactly is pretty difficult, and tends not to help out the receiver. Generally you gain about 3 knots as the receiver closes from precontact to contact, because the boom operator has to raise the boom a little to make the contact and the bow wave reduces drag on the tanker some as well. So I try to hold 3 knots slow at precontact so that I'm on speed when the contact is made... but it's an inexact science. That, and I'm trying not to jockey the throttles too much, so I don't really care if I'm 5 fast or slow as long as I'm basically stable at that speed.

The reason you see a lot of 10 knots fast is because guys gain 3-5 knots during the closure process, and then speed up a little as the tanker off-loads the gas and gets lighter. If you started on speed or even 2 knots fast, you'll be 10 fast pretty quickly.
 
Not exactly. We don't do any receiver work in the KC-135 training, but you do some simulated A/R in the T-1 if you track to a tanker. It isn't exactly the same, though. You go up as a two-ship of T-1's and one guy plays tanker and the other guy receiver. You hold the contact position (even though there is no boom or anything) and practice turns and such. Then you switch roles and play tanker.

How many KC-135s are there that are receiver capable? Aren't there a few?
 
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