SIC Position

Neither one of you has stated anything different that what I've stated; I just not unsing the right word(s) or I'm not being clear.

If you're PIC flying a Type Certficated airplane that requires two pilots, whether that be for the type of operation, equipment available, or by certification alone, you are REQUIRED to have a SIC. Do we agree on this point? Under THIS situation, the SIC must be qualified to log time. Do we agree on this point?

If we agree on these two points, then we are ALL stating the same thing here. I used "type" because, as a trainer in the plane, when you complete either the entry in the log book of the SIC OR complete the 8710 (however you want to show that the training was successfully completed), you are designating that he/she meets all the requirements under 61.55 for a SIC ONLY TYPE RATING. We all know that this training is no where close to a full PIC Type rating, so I was using the "type" to differentiate between the two levels of training. I should have explained the Baby "type" versus the Type......
I think we're on the same page. I was just responding to this "Depends on the aircraft; if a "type" is required to be a PIC, then a "type" would be required for SIC" It's more accurate to say "Depends on the aircraft; if a "type" is required to be a PIC, then a "SIC Checkout" would be required for SIC". That's all I was getting at. Just making sure some of the younger guys that might have an SIC opportunity realize its not quite as complicated as it seems (as long as insurance isn't involved). :)
 
The word "type" implies a rating; ie, it's on the back of your certificate. As has been mentioned, you don't necessarily need anything on the back of your certificate to act as SIC.
 
I have an LOI that covers this perfectly. I'll post it when I get to my laptop.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
Here it is. First half in Part 91. Second Half is Part 135.
Essentially the operator makes the decision about using an autopilot or not. If the autopilot is not used the SIC can log the time. If it is turned on, no time for the SIC.
 
Here it is. First half in Part 91. Second Half is Part 135.
Essentially the operator makes the decision about using an autopilot or not. If the autopilot is not used the SIC can log the time. If it is turned on, no time for the SIC.
Under 135 only, or did I miss something in the letter?
 
Although I can't wait for the responses after the "sober up" phase, my guess is the taste of alcohol will be gone before the taste of the shoe leather. moxiepilot help out jhugz and the rest of us here: Is your OP refering to Part 135 cargo pr Pax, Part 91 or Part 91K?

The answer varies greatly...

While there is a good discussion ongoing throughout the thread regarding logging time, the original post was more theoretical rather than the practical. The post was to point out that some people are not taking jobs because they will add to the logbook totals, rather for the experience and networking - since they already have the basic flight requirements for a number of jobs.

It was a post based on the myopic view that everyone who is taking a job barely meets the minimum time requirements, that there is no other reason to take a job other than to increase the total time in a logbook. Both of those statements are completely false when you can realize that experience and networking are as valuable as total time.

However, just to point out my original post:

A common scenario pops up here every now and again about being an SIC on a plane that does not require an SIC - and then the argument devolves into loggable time, certification requirements and other rules. So, I wanted to take this in a different direction -

Let's assume that a pilot is hired as a SIC in a plane for whatever reason, and the flight time is not loggable.

Why on Earth would they ever consider taking a job as a SIC where they couldn't log time?

That was the intent of the thread - but I don't mind the thread creep / debate, because someone will learn from it...
 
Ok, so I am fully prepared to eat crow. However, am I reading that interp correctly? It is saying that if you are single pilot in 135 pax ops, you cannot turn off the autopilot (no trained SIC sitting next to you). Setting aside the absurd argument(s) of the autopilot being off for take off and landing, basically at no time during the flight can the PIC turn off the autopilot because "by regulation" with the autopilot off an SIC is required.

OR, OR, is the letter speaking to the dispatch of the aircraft with an inop or removed autopilot. If that is the case, then the letter is worded very strangely. If it is the first point then it seems the FAA is being very restrictive on single pilot ops in the 135 pax world.

Perhaps @jtrain could give us a more detailed breakdown of the legalise and what you can and cannot infer from an interp worded like that.
 
Ok, so I am fully prepared to eat crow. However, am I reading that interp correctly? It is saying that if you are single pilot in 135 pax ops, you cannot turn off the autopilot (no trained SIC sitting next to you). Setting aside the absurd argument(s) of the autopilot being off for take off and landing, basically at no time during the flight can the PIC turn off the autopilot because "by regulation" with the autopilot off an SIC is required.

OR, OR, is the letter speaking to the dispatch of the aircraft with an inop or removed autopilot.

Where in the letter does it say anything about the autopilot being turned off? It simply talks about whether or not it's installed and working. Installed and working? No SIC required. Not installed or MEL'ed? SIC required.

Same deal as an installed and operative autopilot being required to operate in RVSM. Nothing says you actually have to USE it while in RVSM.

Edit: all of this assuming your Ops Specs allow you to utilize the 135 reg that authorizes you to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC
 
No. The letter discusses the issue under Part 135. There is a Part 91 discussion at the beginning but on a different point.
The one page I skipped is the one you posted the same letter on.

At least it is getting more visibility.

Where in the letter does it say anything about the autopilot being turned off? It simply talks about whether or not it's installed and working. Installed and working? No SIC required. Not installed or MEL'ed? SIC required.

Same deal as an installed and operative autopilot being required to operate in RVSM. Nothing says you actually have to USE it while in RVSM.

Edit: all of this assuming your Ops Specs allow you to utilize the 135 reg that authorizes you to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC

Under sections 135.1 01 and 135.105, two pilots are required when carrying passengers
under IFR unless an operative and approved autopilot system is installed, in which case one
pilot is required. Although section 135.105 allows single-pilot operations with the use of an
operative approved autopilot system, it does not require that all future flights be conducted
in that manner. See Tarsa Interpretation (Mar. 26, 1992). In other words, the operator can
elect either to operate under IFR with one pilot using the autopilot system or with two pilots,
with the second pilot acting as SIC, without using the autopilot system. See id. Provided
the certificate holder elects before the IFR operation to not use the autopilot system, then
two pilots are required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted, and the pilot
designated as SIC may log SIC flight time. If the autopilot system is used, then the pilot
designated as SIC is not a required flight crewmember and may not log SIC time.

This is what the second half of the LOI says for 135 passenger ops. It does not say anything about the autopilot working or not. It is actually based on use. If the operator elects to not have the pilots use the autopilot, the SIC may log the time. If the autopilot is used in flight. No time for the SIC.
 
Where in the letter does it say anything about the autopilot being turned off? It simply talks about whether or not it's installed and working. Installed and working? No SIC required. Not installed or MEL'ed? SIC required.

Same deal as an installed and operative autopilot being required to operate in RVSM. Nothing says you actually have to USE it while in RVSM.

Edit: all of this assuming your Ops Specs allow you to utilize the 135 reg that authorizes you to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC
That's what I'm saying it is written in a vague sort of way. The letter never says on or off or inop it says use

Kind of like what the definition of is, is.
 
Where in the letter does it say anything about the autopilot being turned off? It simply talks about whether or not it's installed and working. Installed and working? No SIC required. Not installed or MEL'ed? SIC required.

Same deal as an installed and operative autopilot being required to operate in RVSM. Nothing says you actually have to USE it while in RVSM.

Edit: all of this assuming your Ops Specs allow you to utilize the 135 reg that authorizes you to use an autopilot in lieu of an SIC
That's what I'm saying it is written in a vague sort of way. The letter never says on or off or inop it says use

Kind of like what the definition of is, is.
 
That's what I'm saying it is written in a vague sort of way. The letter never says on or off or inop it says use

Kind of like what the definition of is, is.
You are pulling at strings. There are several definitions for the word use.

Webster said:
Definition of USE

1
a : the act or practice of employing something : employment, application <he made good use of his spare time>

b : the fact or state of being used <a dish in daily use>

c : a method or manner of employing or applying something <gained practice in the use of the camera>
2
a (1) : habitual or customary usage (2) : an individual habit or group custom

b : a liturgical form or observance; especially : a liturgy having modifications peculiar to a local church or religious order
3
a : the privilege or benefit of using something <gave him the use of her car>

b : the ability or power to use something (as a limb or faculty)

c : the legal enjoyment of property that consists in its employment, occupation, exercise, or practice <she had the use of the estate for life>
4
a : a particular service or end <put learning to practical use>

b : the quality of being suitable for employment <saving things that might be of use>

c : good 2b <it's no use arguing>

d : the occasion or need to employ <took only what they had use for>
5
a : the benefit in law of one or more persons; specifically : the benefit or profit of property established in one other than the legal possessor

b : a legal arrangement by which such benefits and profits are so established
6
: a favorable attitude : liking <had no use for modern art>
See use defined for English-language learners »

#1 would be the appropriate definition for the context.
 
I'm not pulling at anything. No need to snotty. The interp makes little sense in practical application. I have NEVER been told by any operator to or not to use an autopilot.
 
Ok, so I am fully prepared to eat crow. However, am I reading that interp correctly? It is saying that if you are single pilot in 135 pax ops, you cannot turn off the autopilot (no trained SIC sitting next to you). Setting aside the absurd argument(s) of the autopilot being off for take off and landing, basically at no time during the flight can the PIC turn off the autopilot because "by regulation" with the autopilot off an SIC is required.
That's definitely overthinking the interpretation - that you must use the autopilot in all phases of flight despite published operating limitations and safety considerations.

OTOH, the interpretation is not completely clear on what happens if the operator designates the flight as "no autopilot" but the pilots decide to use it anyway.
 
That's definitely overthinking the interpretation - that you must use the autopilot in all phases of flight despite published operating limitations and safety considerations.

OTOH, the interpretation is not completely clear on what happens if the operator designates the flight as "no autopilot" but the pilots decide to use it anyway.


This quote is directly from the interp.

If the autopilot system is used, then the pilot
designated as SIC is not a required flight crewmember and may not log SIC time.

I will agree with Maurus' definition of use, plain and simple, turning on George.

That being, take that quote to a logical conclusion, if the autopilot ISN'T USED, then and SIC is required.

Here is the paragraph that preceeds that quote.

In other words, the operator can
elect either to operate under IFR with one pilot using the autopilot system or with two pilots,
with the second pilot acting as SIC, without using the autopilot system. See id. Provided
the certificate holder elects before the IFR operation to not use the autopilot system, then
two pilots are required by the regulations under which the flight is conducted, and the pilot
designated as SIC may log SIC flight time.

The way that is written, when taken together gives the impression (albeit a confusing one) that the operator must decide before the flight if the auto pilot will be used or not, if so (AP USED) then no SIC is required. The first quote I put up seems to imply that if the operator says they are NOT going to use the AP then a SIC is required BUT if the the AP is used (despite being told not to by the operator, which is still befuddling me) then the SIC cannot log the time because, by regulation the SIC is not required.

I see this as:

1. AP off/inop/not installed = SIC required
2. AP on = SIC not required

That brings back my point, that you say I am over thinking, that during a normal 135 leg, all AFM limits complied with, turing the AP off is forbidden unless there is a qualified SIC on board. With they way that interp is written, show me how that conclusion is wrong.
 
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