60 Minutes: Is the Air Force's F-22 fighter jet making pilots sick?

Canassis

I find it pretty hilarious that you are the first one to whip out the "experience" argument, and as soon as some of us tell you what our experience is and why it lends more credence to our argument than yours, you reply with the "Fighter Mafia" ad hominem attacks. Nobody was laying down credentials to bolster their points until you brought the subject up.

It's a pleasure to take tips on, and critiques of, officership from someone with your experience.

Read above. I was asked BY YOU what my background was. It wasn't meant to bolster an argument, but to answer the question with respect.

Don't take me answering a question that you asked as a display of feathers. It was done out of courtesy.

75. Not 76.
 
Hacker, you were pretty close man. Canassis, you are a CONTROLLER, and not to knock the civilian controllers here, but you trying to tell them about fighters is like a New York TRACON controller trying to tell me about my company procedures and how to fly a DASH 8, plain and simple, you don't know a damn thing when it comes to the in and outs of there job or the aircraft.


Sit back and stop getting your feelings hurt.
 
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Lightening the mood, one cat at a time.
 
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123301522

The tap dance continues -- or does it?

I've been involved with programs before that were under scrutiny, and even when there is full disclosure of everything you know there can still be an appearance of something being hidden or covered up.

In this case, I think the AF is legitimately trying to find and fix the problem. I don't know if that's always been their top priority, though.

High performance flying is always an analysis and balance of competing risk factors. Some of those risks are acute and others are at the macro level. As we've discussed earlier, Raptor is a very important capability for the USAF (and US) to maintain, and it has certainly appeared at times that the macro-level concern has overshadowed the micro-level pilot issues.

Now that the health issues are front and center -- partly because of the backlash from the Jeff Haney blame game, and partly because of this media pressure from the 60 minutes interview -- I think the AF is legitimately trying to sort this one out.
 
Since this train has already derailed, I would just like to say having been brought up in a military family and having served seven-plus years myself, I find it an abomination whenever anyone attacks someone else's military service or who makes statements about their qualifications to be an officer or an NCO. I found it reprehensible when it was done to George W. Bush. I found it reprehensible when it was done to John Kerry. I find it equally reprehensible now.

Short of obtaining a less than honorable discharge (and sometimes not even then without consideration of the circumstances), nobody's military service should ever be denigrated.

At this point this thread has gone way beyond its useful life, and I'm ashamed of some of the things I've read here from my fellow veterans. Time to shut it down.
 
One thing will remain certain, that there are plenty of people out there who just do not know, what they do not know. The advantage of being on the operational side is that we get to hear the threat briefs from the CIA, or sit in on lectures from the experts at one of the War Colleges. I find it best to not argue with uninformed people, just take comfort knowing that you are privy to information that is not for dissemination to the general public, and let the uninformed form their own opinions and look foolish when they take a strong stand.
 
Short of obtaining a less than honorable discharge (and sometimes not even then without consideration of the circumstances), nobody's military service should ever be denigrated.

At this point this thread has gone way beyond its useful life, and I'm ashamed of some of the things I've read here from my fellow veterans. Time to shut it down.

Not trying to stir the pot, but I didn't see anywhere in this thread where anyone's "service" was "denigrated".

I think it's cringe worthy when people take ad-hominem pot shots at one another based on a few posts they see from each other on a message board, but people shouldn't take any of that with anything more than a grain of salt. Very few of us actually know one another personally and have any way of actually making value judgments about our character, so comments that imply that level of knowledge about someone they've only seen posts from on an internet message board are pretty much worthless in my book.

I think it more reflects poorly on the ones making the comments than anything else.

That being said, there's certainly no reason whatsoever to "shut it down" over comments made in a thread derailment. This is a story that will continue to unfold and should continue to be discussed.
 
Same here, I hope the best for them. Good guy with a family and a huge heart...looks like he has been through enough already.
 
Update: USAF knew of, and foresaw F-22 oxygen system problems. Refused to take action so as not to add cost to the program.

Wow. Multiple guys sick and one dead. But by god, get that plane back flying. This is going to be interesting.

KADENA AIR BASE, Japan (AP) — Years before F-22 pilots began getting dizzy in the cockpit, before one struggled to breathe as he tried to pull out of a fatal crash, before two more went on television to say the plane was so unsafe they refused to fly it, a small circle of U.S. Air Force experts knew something was wrong with the prized stealth fighter jet.

Coughing among pilots and fears that contaminants were leaking into their breathing apparatus led the experts to suspect flaws in the oxygen-supply system of the F-22 Raptor, especially in extreme high-altitude conditions in which the $190 million aircraft is without equal. They formed a working group a decade ago to deal with the problem, creating an informal but unique brain trust.

Internal documents and emails obtained by The Associated Press show they proposed a range of solutions by 2005, including adjustments to the flow of oxygen into pilot's masks. But that key recommendation was rejected by military officials reluctant to add costs to a program that was already well over budget.

"This initiative has not been funded," read the minutes of their final meeting in 2007.

Minutes of the working group's meetings, PowerPoint presentations and emails among its members reveal a missed opportunity for the Air Force to improve pilot safety in the 187-plane F-22 fleet before a series of high-profile problems damaged the image of an aircraft that was already being assailed in Congress as too costly. Its production was halted last spring and the aircraft has never been used in combat.

Among the problems reported after the working group's warnings:
— In 2008, pilots began reporting a sharp increase in hypoxia-like problems, forcing the Air Force to finally acknowledge concerns about the F-22's oxygen supply system.
— Two years later, the oxygen system contributed to a fatal crash. Though pilot error ultimately was deemed to be the cause, the fleet was grounded for four months in 2011.
— New restrictions were imposed in May, after two F-22 pilots went on the CBS program "60 Minutes" to express their continued misgivings.

The Air Force says the F-22 is safe to fly — a dozen of the jets began a six-month deployment to Japan in July — but flight restrictions that remain in place will keep it out of the high-altitude situations where pilots' breathing is under the most stress.
One of the working group's proposed fixes, a backup oxygen system, is expected to be in place by the end of the year. And the Air Force, which blamed the oxygen shortage on a faulty valve in the pilots' vests, says a fix to that problem is also in the works. The working group also proposed changes in warning systems to alert pilots to system failures and urged enhanced tracking of potential health hazards to pilots and ground crew caused by the materials used to bolster the aircraft's stealth — two more issues the Air Force investigations would later focus on.

More broadly, the Air Force now concedes that while its own experts were tackling the F-22's issues, it was too aggressive in cutting back on life-support programs intended to ensure pilots' safety. It is now in the process of rebuilding them.

The F-22's gradual return to regular flight operations follows an exhaustive investigation over the past year by the Air Force, NASA, experts from Lockheed Martin, which produces the aircraft, and other industry officials.

But the documents obtained by AP show many of the concerns raised in that investigation had already been outlined by the working group that was formed in 2002, when the fighter was still in its early production and delivery stage.

It called itself RAW-G, for Raptor Aeromedical Working Group, and brought together dozens of experts in life support, avionics, physiology and systems safety, along with F-22 aircrew and maintainers.

The group was founded by members of the F-22 community who were concerned about how the unique demands of the aircraft could affect pilots. The fighter can evade radar and fly faster than sound without using afterburners, capabilities unmatched by any other country. It also flies higher than its predecessors and has a self-contained oxygen generation system to protect pilots from chemical or biological attack.

According to the Air Force, RAW-G was created at the suggestion of Daniel Wyman, then a flight surgeon at Florida's Tyndall Air Force Base, where the first F-22 squadron was being deployed. Wyman is now a brigadier general and the Air Combat Command surgeon general.

By the time RAW-G got going, some pilots were already experiencing a problem called "Raptor cough" — fits of chest pain and coughing dating back to 2000 that stem from the collapse of overworked air sacs in the lungs.

The group concluded that the F-22's On-Board Oxygen Generation System — or OBOGS — was giving pilots too much oxygen, causing the coughing. The more often and higher the pilots flew after being oxygen-saturated, group members believed, the more vulnerable pilots affected by the condition would be to other physiological incidents.

RAW-G recommended more tests and that the F-22's oxygen delivery system be adjusted through a digital controller and a software upgrade.

"The schedule would provide less oxygen at lower altitudes than the current schedule, which has been known to cause problems with delayed ear blocks and acceleration atelectasis," the technical term for the condition that leads to the coughing, according to the minutes from RAW-G's final meeting.

RAW-G members had spent two years pushing for the change in the oxygen schedule — the amount of oxygen pumped into pilots' life-support systems — but the necessary software upgrade never came through.

"The cost was considered prohibitive in light of other items that people wanted funded for the F-22," said Kevin Divers, a former Air Force physiologist who spearheaded RAW-G until he left the service in 2007 and the group disbanded.

Divers believes the cost would have been about $100,000 per aircraft.

The link between oxygen saturation at lower altitudes and the recent spate of hypoxia-like incidents at high altitudes remains a matter of debate, and it is likely that there are other contributing factors. Both the Air Force and the NASA, however, now concur that the F-22's oxygen schedule needs to be revised.

At a House subcommittee hearing this month, Clinton Cragg, the chief engineer for NASA's Engineering and Safety Center, said the current schedules provide too much oxygen at lower altitudes — as RAW-G warned — and also agreed with RAW-G that testing was insufficient "even back to the beginning of the program."

Lt. Col. Tadd Sholtis, a spokesman for the Air Combat Command at Virginia's Langley-Eustis Air Force Base, the home base for the F-22s deployed in Japan, said the RAW-G group was not meant to last indefinitely. He said it was set up to help officials at Tyndall get up to speed on the medical aspects of flying the F-22, and disbanded "after several meetings and a safe transition to regular F-22 operations at Tyndall."

But even in the last days of the group, its members were identifying more work that needed to be done. In an email to Divers before RAW-G's final meeting, Wyman said health hazards for F-22 pilots and ground crew needed more study.

"I am interested in the potential physiologic/health issues related to flying and fixing the F-22s," he wrote. He added that increased gravitational forces during accelerated turns, high speeds and high altitudes, noise and the "low observable" materials used to give the aircraft its stealth qualities "might lead to new health issues."

By then, the F-22 was just one of the aircraft RAW-G was concerned with. Minutes from the final meeting include "action items" identifying potential issues with the F-35 and the CV-22 Osprey, and a suggestion that RAW-G's work be carried on with higher-level oversight so that it would have more clout. But after Divers left the service, no one took up the torch.

The Air Force says it believes improvements now being put into place make the planes safe to fly under limited restrictions. It is now refitting all pilot life support gear, redesigning the vests so that modified versions can be introduced in the fall, and adding the automated backup oxygen system in the cockpit by the end of the year.

In the meantime, the F-22s in Japan must fly under 44,000 feet so that the flawed vests will not be required, and are on a 30-minute "tether," meaning they must be within 30 minutes of an emergency landing site.

"While we cannot eliminate risk from flight operations, we are confident the F-22 is safe now and on a path to being as safe as any other fighter we fly," Sholtis said.

The Air Force says there have been no breathing-related incidents in the F-22 fleet since March 8, though the aircraft has marked more than 9,000 sorties, or 12,000 flight hours, since then.

"We won't ever bury anything if there are issues, but so far, none," said Brig. Gen. Matthew Molloy, an F-22 pilot and commander of the 18th Wing on Japan's Kadena Air Base. "This airplane is absolutely vital to our national security."

The F-22's woes have been especially troubling for the Air Force because it is in many ways its showcase aircraft — and its most controversial. At $190 million apiece, not counting development costs, it was lambasted in Congress as an overpriced luxury item not suited to current conflicts.

But the flurry of investigations into its safety problems have also revealed a more fundamental issue within the Air Force itself: decades of budget-cutting and outsourcing that severely compromised its expertise on what kinds of physiological problems pilots might face when flying in the extremely demanding conditions posed by its most advanced aircraft.

"Over the past 20 years, the capabilities and expertise of the USAF to perform the critical function of Human Systems Integration have become insufficient," Gregory Martin, who led the study into its oxygen problems for the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board investigation that began in 2011, told the House subcommittee.

Martin said the program's decline cost the Air Force expertise on life support systems, altitude physiology and pilot health and safety. He said that was compounded by "inadequate research, knowledge, and experience for the unique operating environment of the F-22."

Maj. Gen. Charles Lyon, the Air Combat Command's director of operations, concurred with those conclusions at a news conference last month. "We probably overshot the mark on how much downsizing we did in this study of physiology," he said.

Divers considers the demise of RAW-G to be emblematic of that decline.

"The RAW-G became a brain trust, for sure, and it pushed various things that otherwise would have been completely ignored or not even brought up as an issue," Divers said. "All of that died in 2007."

Story here:

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-air-force-insiders-foresaw-f-22-084352828.html
 
That is unreal. Even if it did cost $100k per plane to fix the problem, at the risk of losing a $190M aircraft I would think the financial justification would be there. That doesn't even take into account the health and safety of the pilots.
 
It has been a political football since the early 1990s. Not a surprise here.

It and the V-22 also. I work with a guy who was given the MOS of V-22 Osprey crew chief when he graduated boot camp from the Marines in 1991. Never once saw a V-22 in his 6 years.
 
It and the V-22 also. I work with a guy who was given the MOS of V-22 Osprey crew chief when he graduated boot camp from the Marines in 1991. Never once saw a V-22 in his 6 years.

Interesting parallel. Why does it seem (from the sideline of a not-well-informed-but-interested-civilian) that the most critical aircraft end up being the most expensive and thus, politically explosive?

DoD has had EVERYTHING marked as Top Priority for quite a while now. Sequestration is likely going to deflate that balloon pretty violently. If it forces them to prioritize, I'm interested to see how those priorities will shake out.
 
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