Logging IMC when not current

dmahan

New Member
I am a CFI, but not instrument current. I went flying today in IMC with an instrument rated and current private pilot friend of mine. We took turns flying, any other day we would either just split the time or call it an instruction flight and both take all the time and log his time as dual given. Today was different though being in IMC.

Can I log the IMC time and the approach (and count the approach towards currency)? My argument is that I cannot as I was not legal to act as PIC in that situation. The argument could also be made that I am a rated pilot acting within the limits of my certificate.

I don't want someone to see actual time being logged without me being able to prove currency. Probably won't ever be an issue, but I still want to keep the logbook as correct as possible.
 
The question is not if you can log the time or not. If you fly it, you log it.

The question is, can you fly IMC without being qualified? With another qualified Instructor? yes. Giving dual to your student who is rated to fly in IMC? possibly... Splitting time with your buddy, no.
 
61.57(c) said:
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, a person may act as pilot in command under IFR or weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR only if:
(1) Use of an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship for maintaining instrument experience. Within the 6 calendar months preceding the month of the flight, that person performed and logged at least the following tasks and iterations in an airplane, powered-lift, helicopter, or airship, as appropriate, for the instrument rating privileges to be maintained in actual weather conditions, or under simulated conditions using a view-limiting device that involves having performed the following—
(i) Six instrument approaches.
(ii) Holding procedures and tasks.
(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigational electronic systems.
Who was the acting PIC on your flight? I am will to bet it was your friend.

61.51 said:
(g) Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when conducting instrument flight instruction in actual instrument flight conditions.
(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of this part, the following information must be recorded in the person's logbook—
(i) The location and type of each instrument approach accomplished; and
(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.
Nowhere does this require the person flying to be current or the acting PIC. I say log the time.

Just as a FYI, the FAA has had a long standing interpretation that "acting" and "logging" are two different things and should be interpreted separately in such a scenario.
 
I have to agree with Maurus. Log it all as actual IMC and dual given. You can also log the approaches & any other maneuvers while you were sole manipulator and have it apply to your own currency.
 
I have to agree with Maurus. Log it all as actual IMC and dual given. You can also log the approaches & any other maneuvers while you were sole manipulator and have it apply to your own currency.
I'm not that comfortable with this answer.

The question about logging actual IMC and the approach that dmahan flew is an easy one. Yes, under FAA Chief counsel opinions going back at least 30 years.

But I'm not so sure about the dual given part.

I am a CFI, but not instrument current. I went flying today in IMC with an instrument rated and current private pilot friend of mine. We took turns flying, any other day we would either just split the time or call it an instruction flight and both take all the time and log his time as dual given. Today was different though being in IMC.
dmahan, it sounds like you're uncomforatble referring to a flight in which you, the non-instrument-current CFII are claiming to be giving instrument instruction to an instrument qualified private pilot. That's the right question to be asking yourself.

If it was in fact an instructional flight then you are entitled to count your "student's" time as your PIC time (and even to count his approaches as your own for currency purposes - http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2008/Ronald B. Levy.pdf) There's nothing requiring a CFII giving instrument instruction to a current instrument pilot to be instrument current (heck, he doesn't even require a medical).

But if it wasn't an instructional flight and you're just pretending that it was instruction to be able to log the extra time, that's a logbook falsification issue.
 
I have to agree with Maurus. Log it all as actual IMC and dual given. You can also log the approaches & any other maneuvers while you were sole manipulator and have it apply to your own currency.

Think of it as this way....

Assuming the Instructor is not giving dual.... This means that having a CFI certificate is irrelevant in this discussion.

So knowing this, it would be the same as two private pilots in an airplane. One is current, the other is not. Can the private pilot who is not current go fly IMC (while the other private pilot is acting as PIC) and shoot 6 approaches to get current?

Now IF the instructor is giving dual, then yes, there is no question he can log the time when the student is flying... however when the instructor is the one doing all the flying, it may look fishy. I guess you could call it "demonstrating" an ILS to a student) :biggrin:
 
If it was in fact an instructional flight then you are entitled to count your "student's" time as your PIC time (and even to count his approaches as your own for currency purposes - http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/data/interps/2008/Ronald B. Levy.pdf) There's nothing requiring a CFII giving instrument instruction to a current instrument pilot to be instrument current (heck, he doesn't even require a medical).
.

Interesting. On my Double-I checkride, I asked the examiner pretty much the same question about counting a student's approaches as my own for currency purposes and got pretty much the exact opposite answer
 
Think of it as this way....

Assuming the Instructor is not giving dual.... This means that having a CFI certificate is irrelevant in this discussion.

So knowing this, it would be the same as two private pilots in an airplane. One is current, the other is not. Can the private pilot who is not current go fly IMC (while the other private pilot is acting as PIC) and shoot 6 approaches to get current?
Yes. That is, of course, unless you can find something in 61.51 or 61.57 that says something to the contrary (try ans you might, you won't)
 
Interesting. On my Double-I checkride, I asked the examiner pretty much the same question about counting a student's approaches as my own for currency purposes and got pretty much the exact opposite answer
DEs are not necessarily the best at keeping up the the regulations they quiz on. Keep in mind though that counting student approaches only applies in actual instrument conditions.

To be fair, until this interpretive letter, this was one of those questions that you'd get a different answer to depending on who you asked. And since they present a potential violation for a pilot, consistency is important. Those are the ones that I like to see Chief Counsel interpretations for.
 
I am a CFI, but not instrument current. I went flying today in IMC with an instrument rated and current private pilot friend of mine. We took turns flying, any other day we would either just split the time or call it an instruction flight and both take all the time and log his time as dual given. Today was different though being in IMC.

Can I log the IMC time and the approach (and count the approach towards currency)? My argument is that I cannot as I was not legal to act as PIC in that situation. The argument could also be made that I am a rated pilot acting within the limits of my certificate.

I don't want someone to see actual time being logged without me being able to prove currency. Probably won't ever be an issue, but I still want to keep the logbook as correct as possible.
NO you can not log the time. If you aren't current, how far out of currency are we talking? If you require an IPC, you shouldn't have TOUCHED the flight controls because you don't meet the PIC requirement for IFR currency. Lookie, but no touchie, which you admitted to doing anyway. If you were outside 6 months, and inside a year from the date of the flight without requiring an IPC, then you still can't act as PIC, which you were. This is kind of a no-brainer thread if you ask me. Don't log it, get an IPC and/or current, and then start teaching again and stay current and you won't have to worry about it.
 
NO you can not log the time. If you aren't current, how far out of currency are we talking? If you require an IPC, you shouldn't have TOUCHED the flight controls because you don't meet the PIC requirement for IFR currency.

Nothing prohibits you from touching the flight controls if you aren't acting PIC. And you can still log it - that's true for all student pilots after all, right? If you are a pilot rated in category and class & sole manipulator, totally okay to log time even if you aren't acting PIC. For that matter, it is also okay to give dual instruction without being the acting PIC (not required anyway, since the other pilot was acting PIC). You can also log it as dual given, and PIC, and demonstrate to your heart's content.

As for the splitting time - well, I would say you were bartering flight instruction services. Which is how I got most of my ratings :)
 
NO you can not log the time. If you aren't current, how far out of currency are we talking? If you require an IPC, you shouldn't have TOUCHED the flight controls because you don't meet the PIC requirement for IFR currency. Lookie, but no touchie, which you admitted to doing anyway. If you were outside 6 months, and inside a year from the date of the flight without requiring an IPC, then you still can't act as PIC, which you were. This is kind of a no-brainer thread if you ask me. Don't log it, get an IPC and/or current, and then start teaching again and stay current and you won't have to worry about it.
You need to read the rest of the thread.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
I did. So, what's your point.

He can log the time. The precedence has been set by the FAA chief counsel on such issues.

Obviously if he was acting as an instructor, no. As a fellow pilot, most certainly yes.

Currency does not dictate the logging of any type of time in this instance. Currency is only required to be the "Acting PIC" of the IFR flight. The other pilot was the "Acting PIC". The OP was merely flying the aircraft part of the time adn was not acting as the PIC of the flight.

Under 61.51 there are no regs requiring someone to be current or the "Acting PIC" to log instrument time. There are no regs in the FARs that require the "Acting PIC" to be the person flying the plane. You are making up regs that don't exist.
 
He can log the time. The precedence has been set by the FAA chief counsel on such issues.

Obviously if he was acting as an instructor, no. As a fellow pilot, most certainly yes.

Currency does not dictate the logging of any type of time in this instance. Currency is only required to be the "Acting PIC" of the IFR flight.

Under 61.51 there are no regs requiring someone to be current or the "Acting PIC" to log instrument time. There are no regs in the FAR that require the "Acting PIC" to be the person flying the plane. You are making up regs that don't exist.
Making up regs? No. I just am telling this to you from a FSDO's standpoint. I'm telling you, if an inspector from my local fsdo came on here and read this thread, they would have a field day busting that kids ass. But again, it's also the hardest FSDO in the nation, so what do you expect.
 
Making up regs? No. I just am telling this to you from a FSDO's standpoint. I'm telling you, if an inspector from my local fsdo came on here and read this thread, they would have a field day busting that kids ass. But again, it's also the hardest FSDO in the nation, so what do you expect.

FSDOs aren't as standardized as the name implies. You would be surprised how many seem to not know that this site even exists. It is sad really.

Also MidlifeFlyer has a ton of experience with this stuff. Reread his posts.

There is an active FSDO inspector on the site. I am sure when/if he responds you will not like the answer.
 
Making up regs? No. I just am telling this to you from a FSDO's standpoint. I'm telling you, if an inspector from my local fsdo came on here and read this thread, they would have a field day busting that kids ass. But again, it's also the hardest FSDO in the nation, so what do you expect.
I've lost track of the exact version of the scenario being discussed, but even the nastiest FSDO in the country would have a hard time busting anyone for something that the FAA Chief Counsel said is completely proper.

If we're talking about the general proposition that a non-instrument-rated (or current) pilot is permitted to log instrument time when the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircaft the pilot is rated for , the most recent formal opinion I know of is here: 2011 Walker - Log PIC in Actual - 2 pilots

Yes, like any other bad cop a FSDO inspector who goes beyond his authority and makes up his own rules (intentionally or through error) can cause problems.
 
Forgive my ignorance, but how does acting as an instructor change anything? (everything else being as stated)
I should say as a CFI. If he has a CFII it should be fine to log the time assuming it was legitimate instruction.

There is also the problem that some CFIs go up with friends that are pilots to "share time" and then sign the other guy's log book as a CFI. They try to use this as a loophole to allow them to log everything. Including the cross-countries. No instruction was actually given. Someone from the FAA could easily question seeing a bunch of random "instruction flights" with no substance in them.
 
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