Bygone era of commercial aviation

I don't think it's quite fair to say that airlines "allowed" this to happen. IMS, train conductors and stage coach drivers were total badasses back in their day, too. Women wanted them, and men wanted to be them. Their jobs became "infrastructure" jobs, too. Capitalism is a harsh mistress.
 
Maurus said:
Yup. Unfortunately the customer will never let the price go up at this point.

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Negative.

The customer will adjust, and they will continue to pay, because business travelers - the ones who really keep the lights on at most airlines - still have to do business and I have yet to work with a high-end video-conferencing system that is an acceptable substitute for a face to face meeting.

We will cut our own costs to adjust, but we will pay.
 
killbilly said:
Negative.

The customer will adjust, and they will continue to pay, because business travelers - the ones who really keep the lights on at most airlines - still have to do business and I have yet to work with a high-end video-conferencing system that is an acceptable substitute for a face to face meeting.

We will cut our own costs to adjust, but we will pay.
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The customer will adjust by going to a different airline. That is why a premium airline wouldn't survive. The customer just looks at the number Expedia throws are them, not the actual product itself. The only way prices can go up is is every airline gets an increased cost (which doesn't improve the product at all) or they all start price fixing. Price fixing is kind of illegal last I checked.
 
Don't blame the consumer or the government because an airline can't compete; blame the airline. I'm sick of hearing that deregulation destroyed the industry, when almost all of us owe our careers to it.
 
Maurus said:
The customer will adjust by going to a different airline. That is why a premium airline wouldn't survive. The customer just looks at the number Expedia throws are them, not the actual product itself. The only way prices can go up is is every airline gets an increased cost (which doesn't improve the product at all) or they all start price fixing. Price fixing is kind of illegal last I checked.
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Part of it the equation is the very significant difference between coach and business/first class, as well. I am MORE than happy to pay more for a better service/product. Last year my wife and I decided to buy quality furniture made to last... that excluded pretty much everything made in China and sold at all of the big boxes. We bought Stickley. We paid more, but were confident that the cost/value ratio was in our favor.

I cannot say the same for flying. We are going to France for vacation in 10 days. When we started researching flights, I thought it might be nice to step it up a level and try for at least business class. Sticker shock doesn't begin to describe what I felt. Our flight costs would have more than quadrupled, and cost more than the entire vacation itself. First Class was just a joke. For what I would have had to pay for first, we could have gotten a very, very nice new car. The cost/value ratio is just not there. Perhaps it is for the very wealthy. We are what I would consider middle-upper-middle class :) and even just one step up in the level of service was WELL beyond our means.
 
SteveCostello said:
I cannot say the same for flying. We are going to France for vacation in 10 days. When we started researching flights, I thought it might be nice to step it up a level and try for at least business class. Sticker shock doesn't begin to describe what I felt. Our flight costs would have more than quadrupled, and cost more than the entire vacation itself. First Class was just a joke. For what I would have had to pay for first, we could have gotten a very, very nice new car. The cost/value ratio is just not there. Perhaps it is for the very wealthy. We are what I would consider middle-upper-middle class :) and even just one step up in the level of service was WELL beyond our means.
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They fill it up most of the time at those prices, too. No need to come down on it.
 
Speaking of the past in aviation, there is an Aurthur Godfrey video on youtube from the 1950s that is pretty interesting! It's a little over an hour long, but has some great footage and a couple of aviation legends in it.
 
Oh, I understand that. It'd just be nice to have a level of service somewhere in the middle.

However, since the next step up is a HUGE jump in price, I'm stuck back in coach. And yeah... if that is the case, I'll look for the cheapest fare on my airlines of choice I can get. Why should I pay $40 more than the guy sitting next to me for the same level of service and 'comfort?' (excluding the so-called premium seats, which any more are exit row/bulkhead seats, anything forward of the wing, and almost all of the aisle seats on some carriers).
 
Maurus said:
The customer will adjust by going to a different airline. That is why a premium airline wouldn't survive. The customer just looks at the number Expedia throws are them, not the actual product itself. The only way prices can go up is is every airline gets an increased cost (which doesn't improve the product at all) or they all start price fixing. Price fixing is kind of illegal last I checked.
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It's not necessary to price fix. It is necessary to offer value and differentiation.
 
killbilly said:
Negative.

The customer will adjust, and they will continue to pay, because business travelers - the ones who really keep the lights on at most airlines - still have to do business and I have yet to work with a high-end video-conferencing system that is an acceptable substitute for a face to face meeting.

We will cut our own costs to adjust, but we will pay.
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I used to go to Saudi 4 times a year for business. Boeing's policy then was International travel was 1st class on the domestic portion and business overseas. I don't think I paid less than $12k a ticket during those two years, same thing with UK a few years before that, $6k a month (one trip a month).

Though there now, and where I work now, we are forced to the lowest fare available (I only have US customers here). If I go over the lowest fare by more than $199 then the travel police come visit me demanding an explination (even if that means I have to stay another day because low fare flight leaves at 7am and I have meetings to 3pm).

In fact now we had an overrun in another division, so all travel has been whacked and we are told to use the Cisco meeting rooms (not gonna happen as my customer doesn't have Cisco).

I miss the old days, same price, pick the service level you liked most. Don't miss the days of the guys blowing smoke in the seat in front of me though.
 
A substantial percentage of people sitting in first or business class are there because of upgrades, not because they purchased a full-fare business class or first class ticket.
 
MQAAord said:
A substantial percentage of people sitting in first or business class are there because of upgrades, not because they purchased a full-fare business class or first class ticket.
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^^^ So true, taking the Mrs and 4 kids to Rome in November, all six riding up front on her VIP upgrades!

Then again I was on a Gulf Air flight from Dubai to London and it was me and some other guy next to me in First, all other seats were taken up by a local and his many wives, children and their "staff" :)
 
Bob Ridpath said:
"Prior to 1978, the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB) regulated airline competition. The CAB had authority over where an airline could fly, what it could charge, and whether or not it could even exist. All fine and good; it probably helped the airline industry get up and running. The problem is that the CAB only regulated the revenue side. They asserted no control over the cost side. Since competition was controlled, airlines had little incentive to keep costs in-check."

Well, I still don't get it. To focus on small New England airports and assuming the principle(s) apply to other areas of the country: There MUST have been a perceived market of some sort for NE to fly into New Bedford, Executive into Auburn-Lewiston and so forth, no? Maybe the DC9 was the best option in some way for EWB at one point (or the only one. Twin Otters into LEW, btw) but I guess I wonder how the business model was developed. How were decisions to serve an airport made in the "glory" days. If the market was never really there, why did the service exist at all?

As an aside, I don't recall my entire family ever flying together but the airfare of the time didn't seem onerous to a single passenger (me) who could only pay for the ticket by dint of hard work and saving school lunch money. Was it honestly that exclusive?
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It's not that the market wasn't there. It's that the CAB restricted competition on that route. Many carriers had monopolies on certain markets. But the price was controlled so that the carrier made money, but not "too much" money.
 
Gordon Bathune, one of the best CEO's Continental Airlines ever had, once said you can make a product so cheap that no one wants it any more. A little off topic but I think management at United has forgotten that completely.
 
dasleben said:
Don't blame the consumer or the government because an airline can't compete; blame the airline. I'm sick of hearing that deregulation destroyed the industry, when almost all of us owe our careers to it.
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I believe the government has quite a bit of blame to shoulder for the current state of the airline industry. Their mismanagement of the ATC system, as well as the ever-growing number of regulations it imposes makes it almost impossible for any airline to survive.
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
Gordon Bathune, one of the best CEO's Continental Airlines ever had, once said you can make a product so cheap that no one wants it any more. A little off topic but I think management at United has forgotten that completely.
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This is true. Things given away have no value, things ridiculously cheap have little value. It's a strange phenomenon, to be sure, but it is true.
 
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