Bravo Clearance
- Thread starter mshunter
- Start date
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
The blind leading the blind.
Der_Meister
Well-Known Member
While he is technically right; its not like they can stop you, nor is there a gate that lets airplanes in after you get your clearance. It would be incredibly stupid.
Maurus
The Great Gazoo
Yeah good luck with that. Pilots have been violated for taking a heading into the bravo.
Houston
Well-Known Member
Vice versa, I've heard controllers yell at pilots for asking if they are cleared into Bravo while on vectors. Personally, I'm of the "go ahead and yell if you want to, but I'm still asking" mindset.
z987k
Well-Known Member
We had like a 10 minute conversation about it on frequency. This was Socal to. I kept asking for those magic words, and he kept evading giving them to me, yet expecting me to continue anyway. I don't think there's a reg or anything that specifies those words must be said.
rframe
pǝʇɹǝʌuı
I dont know, it sure sounds like the words need to be said from my reading of the regs. The only way to get around 91.131(a)(1) is to claim that a vector is a clearance. Seems like anywhere else that a clearance is required they need to say "cleared" (cleared as filed, cleared direct to BFE, cleared to land, cleared for takeoff, etc.)
I guess if the individual controller doesn't care then more than likely nobody else would, but if for some reason somebody at a FSDO were pulling a tape with me on it, I'd want to know that the controller said the words, so I wouldn't have to explain why I didn't need them to.
§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
I guess if the individual controller doesn't care then more than likely nobody else would, but if for some reason somebody at a FSDO were pulling a tape with me on it, I'd want to know that the controller said the words, so I wouldn't have to explain why I didn't need them to.
§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with §91.129 and the following rules:
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
Ah! The famous myth of the implied clearance.
Yes. Absolutely. Guessing games are fun.
From time to time a controller will indeed intend to clear a VFR aircraft (this whose discussion doesn't apply to IFR aircraft which are already on a clearance) you into the Bravo without saying the "magic words."
If you are interested in guessing games, you can use an assigned heading or "apphttp://tinyurl.com/6swue8broved as requested" (which is better than most) as a hint without using 3-4 seconds to add "cleared into Class B" to your readback (which, interestingly, you probably would read back if it were said, so no comments about tying up the airways!)
If you guess right, you win. If you guess wrong, you lose.
btw here's the FAA Chief Counsel opinion on guessing with vectors and altitudes. http://tinyurl.com/6swue8b
rframe
pǝʇɹǝʌuı
Nice one MidlifeFlyer, that makes it pretty clear.
First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a
clearance under § 91.131 (a)(l) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no.
A pilot must specifically receive an ATC clearance to enter the class B airspace. The
issuance of a vector provides navigation information but does not provide clearance from
ATC to enter the subject airspace.
Second, you pose that if the pilot elects to turn to avoid the Class B airspace, did the pilot
violate § 91. 123(a)(b) and/or 91.111(a). If the pilot only received the vector for traffic from
ATC, the pilot did not receive a clearance or instruction from ATC.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Ya, I still won't do it without a specific clearance. But I've had multiple controllers not want to say the magic words, and then it's just a back and forth clogging up the airwaves much longer than if he would have said it in the first place.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Just because the controller isn't doing his job correctly doesn't mean you should do the same.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Most of the time it went like this - Approved as requested.
Me- Nxx understand cleared into bravo on XXX heading?
Controller - Approved.
Me - Nxx cleared into B on XX heading.
Controller - Affirmative.
It's like COME ON!
TwoTwoLeft
o- - - - - - -l
You just answered your own question....