Public perception of pilots...

Qutch said:
Alright junior. Them's fighten' words ! :) TACAN is my baby an no one bad mouth's TACAN and gets away with it on my watch.

Just kidding. But while drones and GPS do have their places, they still can't completely replace the ability of the human brain in the cockpit. Not for those who've seen what it can do. I'm sure you won't want to argue with me on the drone vs pilot issue, but you never got a chance to see what Zen-Tacan (temporal perception) trained pilots could do.




The premise behind the dying skill of Zen (temporal) TACAN navigation was that the pilot's brain has an under-utilized processor (like a dual core PC processor) which can subconsciously process the navigation and maneuvering tasks without bothering the conscious mind. And the subconscious mind can do it faster than a pilot can program the coordinates into a computer. In competition studies, the Zen-TACAN pilots had already spun their aircraft around and were headed to the join-up or fix before the whiz-wheel/computerized teams had even finished programming their coordinates. Using simulators to demonstrate, the Zen-TACAN pilots could complete back-to-back fix-to-fixes inside of an existing holding pattern (or other tight area), pulling G's at 70-80 degree angle of bank turns, crossing the tightly clustered fixes while still in the initial turns. Something impossible to do with a computer. It was like watching a pro soccer player maneuver his ball through a field of defenders. It's something you can't program into a computer. But the human brain can do it subconsciously, while you carry on a conversation with the guy next to you. It's called temporal (time based) processing.

As far as threat nations not suppying TACAN for our war planes, of course not. The Navy carries their own TACAN with them on board the Carriers don't they? And Forward Air Controllers could carry baby versions of it into the field in appropriate situations. Of course I'm not against GPS or INS. I'm just providing an example that I think is relevant to BEEF SUPREME's OP. As you saw in the video I posted, those of us who study this issue have been concerned for some time about the dangers of embracing new technology too quickly, and throwing out the old technology (like real pilots in favor of drones).
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Well the irony of the ESPN commercial IMHO was when the pilots said "technology has been good to us."

I would argue that it has not. Just as I have seen GPS ruin my chances of being a paid navigator on yachts after learning celestial navigation. I see GPS ruining our chances of ever being paid well.

Mostly because of the public's perception that flying is as easy as kicking back with a cookie and pressing land.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Well the irony of the ESPN commercial IMHO was when the pilots said "technology has been good to us."

I would argue that it has not. Just as I have seen GPS ruin my chances of being a paid navigator on yachts after learning celestial navigation. I see GPS ruining our chances of ever being paid well.

Mostly because of the public's perception that flying is as easy as kicking back with a cookie and pressing land.
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I would say the public's perception has little to nothing to do with being well paid at as a pilot. I would say the general public assumes I'm well paid anyway. Hell, I don't even know what "well paid" means anymore. What jobs DO pay well compared to 15 years ago?
 
Autothrust Blue said:
AFAICR there are still a handful of turboprop routes in the Delta Connection system, although the Delta Connection between LAX and San Diego is now CR2/CR7.
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They must HATE saving money!! Though, they did recognize that you can keep an MD80 going with the help of a local Pep Boys and subsequently bought a bunch. :D
 
UAL747400 said:
They must HATE saving money!! Though, they did recognize that you can keep an MD80 going with the help of a local Pep Boys and subsequently bought a bunch. :D
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Airplanes that are paid for: good.

Airplanes that are efficient and paid for: even better.

(etc.)

The point is, after all, to make money.
 
Does the paycheck still come on the 1st and the 15th and not bounce? Yes? Good, I don't really care what the public thinks about what I do, then.
 
///AMG said:
Yes, they function more or less in the same way that VOR/DME works, with a few technical differences. We can't tune a VOR freq into the TACAN though.
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Well, you can... If you convert it by doing the math, which I can't remember... Or look up the conversion in the IFR Sup.

As for the Navy "heavies," the E-6 is comparable to any civilian airliner as far as the avionics goes. Since we got our flight deck upgrade 6-7 years ago, we have the dual GPS/ILS/Scanning DME stuff going for us.

You can definitely see the way the culture has changed though with the upgrades. All the pre-upgrade pilots hated the glass. All the young'ns brought up on the glass hate hand flying. Now, the pre-upgrade guys are coming back through as Department Heads and showing the young guys what it means to be a pilot.

I just sit behind them and chuckle when a young guy can't get the box to do what he wants while the controller is yelling at him for not following a jet route and avoiding the restricted area it borders. Then watch as the older guy clicks off the A/P and follows a VOR needle.
 
MercFE said:
I just sit behind them and chuckle when a young guy can't get the box to do what he wants while the controller is yelling at him for not following a jet route and avoiding the restricted area it borders. Then watch as the older guy clicks off the A/P and follows a VOR needle.
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You may...or may not....be surprised to know that this is an issue in lots of corners of the professional flying world. This is exactly what I was talking about with respect to the USAF heavy dudes.

I flew with guys in the King Air that looked at hand flying as if it were an emergency procedure in and of itself. Guys who were actually timid and frightened when they couldn't use the autopilot, FGS, or FMS to fly the airplane, and had to rely on the funny W-looking thing sitting between their knees to make the airplane do what they wanted it to do. With some of these guys it was like they were regressing to their first couple flights as a student again.

The worst were the pilots who flew with their seat so low that they could not see over the top of the glare shield without sitting way up in the seat and straining. Those of you who've flown King Airs know that the panel is somewhat tall -- when I was sitting with the seat all the way up, I could just barely see down the slope of the nose, and I'm over 6 feet tall. These pilots were so completely reliant on the avionics -- and comfortable with flying that way -- that it almost seemed as if it was annoying to them to have to use those funny clear-colored things that were above the panel.

I remember one guy who was so engrossed in the FMS that when, from 15 miles out and cleared by the controller to report 5-mile initial, spent all the way in to 8 miles looking between the seats programming the FMS to get the airplane to 5 mile initial. When he finished programming the FMS, he flew the remaining 3 miles staring straight at the PFD right in front of his nose and never once looking outside to find the field visually or even clear our flight path while navigating VFR. After making the "initial" call, he finally strained to look up over the panel to see the field.

Hey...so long as the TCAS is good and the FMS is set, no need to look outside to either clear or navigate, right?
 
MercFE said:
......You can definitely see the way the culture has changed though with the upgrades. All the pre-upgrade pilots hated the glass. All the young'ns brought up on the glass hate hand flying. Now, the pre-upgrade guys are coming back through as Department Heads and showing the young guys what it means to be a pilot.

I just sit behind them and chuckle when a young guy can't get the box to do what he wants while the controller is yelling at him for not following a jet route and avoiding the restricted area it borders. Then watch as the older guy clicks off the A/P and follows a VOR needle.
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To take that observation to the next level....Air Force Research and Development had identified pilots in the Air Force who had uncanny abilities. "Naturals" some people called them. "Savants" some thought. Pilots with isolated skills that defied any explanation based merely on their training. One area I worked with in AF R&D was navigation abilities, a project intended to discover how these savant pilots did what they did (certainly not by any method the Air Force taught them). Some lone pilots did not need any time, or a whiz-wheel, or a computer, or a navigator to hit a fix precisely. They could instantly spin the aircraft around at 70-80 degrees of bank, go to afterburner and were through an assigned fix before a competing 'team' of the best navigators and pilots (working together and armed with computers) could even program the problem and determine an initial heading. In fact, these pilots could do back-to-back sets of those maneuvers using TACAN (VOR/DME), while climbing and descending to new altitude assignments. Aerobatics under the hood. To test their abilities fully, they had to use a flight simulator because their minds could direct and accomplish violent maneuvers, using instruments alone, far more quickly than G forces would permit.

Based upon what I've observed in R&D, even today's fighter pilots are not aware of their full potential to greatly outperform certain aspects of modern avionic systems. The sad thing was, they found many of these advanced skills to be teachable to newly hatched student pilots (not so easy with experienced pilots), but the techniques rarely got through the political obstacles and into wider training adoption.
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IMS, the military uses the BE400A to train their heavy pilots. I know of a couple of those (er, personally, so to speak) that you could probably pick up for a song which would be PERFECT for teaching less reliance on the FMS, because their FMSes sometimes mysteriously turn themselves off, and it's asses and elbows off to the races to remember how to use the Green Monster... :)
 
Boris Badenov said:
IMS, the military uses the BE400A to train their heavy pilots. I know of a couple of those (er, personally, so to speak) that you could probably pick up for a song which would be PERFECT for teaching less reliance on the FMS, because their FMSes sometimes mysteriously turn themselves off, and it's asses and elbows off to the races to remember how to use the Green Monster... :)
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Yeah. they still predominantly use the T1s. We were not really allowed to use the actual FMS/GPS in UPT in most circumstances. Or at least that's how it was back in 2000. Can't speak to what it is now. I miss fix to fixes. :(

Hacker, really dude? That's frightening! Tell me those weren't 135 guys though? When I got out we still pretty much handflew up to cruise and clicked the toys back off when we started initial descent - very rarely actually even using the flight director. But that was pre-block 40. Maybe things have changed with some of the newer toys.
 
BEEF SUPREME said:
Well the irony of the ESPN commercial IMHO was when the pilots said "technology has been good to us."

I would argue that it has not. Just as I have seen GPS ruin my chances of being a paid navigator on yachts after learning celestial navigation. I see GPS ruining our chances of ever being paid well.
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Could be. But I'm not sure how we can advocate withholding technology in order to save jobs. The 1900 horse drawn buggy makers would have appreciated that kind of protection for their jobs. I think if GPS has a valid role to play, so be it. What I've been interested in is pilots' willingness to cut their own throats by willingly abandoning existing skills (and their unwillingness to learn new skills) in favor of new automation technology when it's offered. Like the pilots in your ESPN film, many accept a cookie and a "LAND" button rather than develop and perfect their own skills like pilots had to in the past. I don't mean system programing skills, I'm talking about flying and mental skills. Too many of us are like kids growing up with cell phones who's address books store all their phone numbers for them, making it seem unthinkably taxing to memorize the phone numbers that their parents grew up memorizing. Kids, who when they lose their phone, they can't recall a single number or contact anybody.

If we're going to let ourselves be dumbed down into becoming automation attendants, then I guess we need to be prepared to be paid like them. We have (or had) options, but while I hear pilots calling for higher pay, I don't hear enough of them, often enough, clamoring to obtain skills beyond the minimum required for the jobs they hold or seek. (Except you of course, who have constructed a foolproof plan of becoming the first pro-surfer/airline captain. :) )
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Agreed on the above Qutch. I'm actually not a big fan of pilot relief modes (our automation is pretty antiquated compared to a lot of the stuff that is out there), though at times they are needed to facilitate breaking out 8 ft charts in a 2 ft cockpit, or studying a GRG during a talk on or such things. FWIW most of us in our late '20's remember the time when we didn't have cell phones and had to remember phone #'s :)
 
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