Remembering 135 alternate requirements

Heh, I've had my share of fun - got a lot more cowboy experience in airplanes than I think you realize, now generally speaking I'm too lazy, paranoid or scared to do anything too abnormal. One thing I learned is that knowing as much as you can is kind of required to really do cowboy stuff. You might not need to know Vx in the Metro 99% of the time, but the day you need it to clear a ridge you'll want to know it. I don't know everything about the airplane, but I do my damnedest to know as much as I can,I even go so far as to try to commit things that aren't necessarily need to know to memory - I sure as hell am not proud of any of the huge gaps in knowledge I have, and try to keep sharp on everything, even though that's impossible to do perfectly. You guys next door aren't cowboy, not really by a long shot though you guys do fly freight IFR in the flatlands, and dodge thunderstorms periodically.

Also, for the record, VFR isn't cowboy - especially not in Juneau it's just the only way to get in and out of town a lot of the time. When you see cowboy, you'll know it.
 
ppragman said:
Heh, I've had my share of fun - got a lot more cowboy experience in airplanes than I think you realize, now generally speaking I'm too lazy, paranoid or scared to do anything too abnormal. One thing I learned is that knowing as much as you can is kind of required to really do cowboy stuff. You might not need to know Vx in the Metro 99% of the time, but the day you need it to clear a ridge you'll want to know it. I don't know everything about the airplane, but I do my damnedest to know as much as I can,I even go so far as to try to commit things that aren't necessarily need to know to memory - I sure as hell am not proud of any of the huge gaps in knowledge I have, and try to keep sharp on everything, even though that's impossible to do perfectly. You guys next door aren't cowboy, not really by a long shot though you guys do fly freight IFR in the flatlands, and dodge thunderstorms periodically.

Also, for the record, VFR isn't cowboy - especially not in Juneau it's just the only way to get in and out of town a lot of the time. When you see cowboy, you'll know it.
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For the record, the move away from rampant memorization of unnecessary items is the direction many airlines are now going. Nothing cowboy about it. Know what's required for your job.
 
jhugz said:
So you scud runned around mountains, at least you knew that Vx though.
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I can think of a few occasions where being able to clear the ridge line was based on very precise adherence to Vx. Knowing two engine Vy is pretty useful too at times - like when climbing into a good tailwind. Maneuvering speed usually isn't on the gauge kind of a useful thing to know. Max tire speed isn't on the gauge that can be important to factor into account when landing.

I guess the thought process for me is that if you're omitting the "easy" stuff, what else are you omitting? I mean I wouldn't expect people to know the pressure of the oxygen bottle or the tire pressure, but stuff like airspeeds, emergency items, power plant limitations etc, are portent to have at least somewhat committed to memory.
 
If you CFIed for even one hour, you'd understand how useless rote knowledge is. I don't agree with a lot of airline training stuff, but this is the step in the right direction.
 
ppragman said:
...power plant limitations etc...
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Those aren't even published in my books, nor are they readily available to me. The actual operational limits are shown on the engine display as one or two solid lines (basically, caution and maximum). I really don't know what those figures are, nor does it matter. If it's in that upper range, you need to do something about it.

Like I said, this is the way many airlines are approaching training these days, and safety has not been compromised.
 
dasleben said:
For the record, the move away from rampant memorization of unnecessary items is the direction many airlines are now going. Nothing cowboy about it. Know what's required for your job.
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I actually don't disagree with this, there is very little that kills you instantly. However, as a caveat, I think "know what's required for your job" should be the minimum, not the maximum. Yes there is "nice to know" information, but how hard is it to keep sharp on some of the easy "rote" information - which may incidentally be useful at some point. You don't need to know things about stuff you can't change, but knowing Vx could be dammed useful in the right context. Knowing the specific value of blueline isn't mandatory, but c'mon, how hard is it to associate the little line on the gauge with a number? You don't need to know what the bus voltage should be, but sometimes - especially on oldass airplanes - the checklists don't necessarily cover every eventuality and knowing that a bus is low could be useful in deciding what checklist to run. No, you're not going to stay super sharp for the entire time between recurrents, but spending a little time studying up more than just prior to your checkride might alleviate that.

You're current in 3 complicated airplanes, and there could be interference. The saavy aviator recognizes this and tailors what he or she is sharp on to prevent this - which is exactly what it sounds like you're doing. When flying the same type day in and day out, even though individual models may very, I try my hardest to know as much as I can about the airplane, and know the differences between individual ships.
 
Jhugz
If you've ever flown outside of CFIing or night cargo in the flattest part of the country you'd know how useful ppragmans info is.

<edited: removed personal insult>
 
jhugz said:
If you CFIed for even one hour, you'd understand how useless rote knowledge is. I don't agree with a lot of airline training stuff, but this is the step in the right direction.
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I took the FOI back in the day, I remember the basics, irregardless, if you can correlate those numbers to the system beyond mere application - well, then you're doing pretty good. While you were teaching, I was out in the weeds...incidentally using some of the stuff that I had learned by rote. There's a place for rote knowledge, yes rote is limited, but sometimes you just have to know the answer, and you can't pull out the AFM every other trip to remember Vp.

Also, this isn't training anymore, you're on your own to train yourself between training sessions. I fail to see how knowing more about an airplane could be a bad thing.
 
Lol, you Alaska guys crack me up. Talk big about your time in the bush, then when it comes to wx flying in the lower 48, everyone else is dangerous.
 
No, your not dangerous, your dumb because you just go with the flow and don't know why you're doing it.

There is a reason there isnt a wildy popular Discovery Channel show about flying freight in the Dakotas.
 
jhugz said:
Lol, you Alaska guys crack me up. Talk big about your time in the bush, then when it comes to wx flying in the lower 48, everyone else is dangerous.
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Right...wait, when were we talking about weather in this thread? If it's thunderstorms we're talking about, its not that pushing through lines or whatever is particularly dangerous, rather I just don't find it all that impressive. I don't get the point of subjecting yourself to avoidable risk. If its unavoidable, like every day is MVFR and the approaches don't get you low enough to go IFR - then you go VFR, then sure, scud run, but come up with a plan and fly the plan. Thunderstorms generally aren't like that. They aren't a typhoon. You can go around or wait em' out most of the time - they're short lived. If you have to go, and there's no way around, but there are gaps, then you shoot the gap. I don't really know what you're getting at here.
 
Dasleben and I work for the same place, and that's exactly right. If you wanted to find the engine limit info you'd really have to dig. I don't even know if our books have it. The engine instruments have moving red limit lines based upon the situation (i.e. startup vs. idle). Our books are based off of Boeing books also. This was true for the last company I worked at also. I previously flew for Ameriflight and I agree mostly with their training strategy. However, it always annoyed me that I was asked to memorize things that had red lines or blue lines. I even used that answer one day during an oral and got a good laugh out of the examiner who happened to agree with me. I knew the number for the checkride, but since there's a line, I would quickly forget whether that line was at 118 or 117 or whatever. I would also agree with ppragman that It's very useful at times to know certain things like Vx. However, if you fly an airplane for a while you'll figure out which of those things that perhaps isn't written down would be good to know. The company I work for is the king of not publishing helpful info, I carry a lot of my own reminders for things like that.
 
Dan208B said:
Dasleben and I work for the same place, and that's exactly right. If you wanted to find the engine limit info you'd really have to dig. I don't even know if our books have it. The engine instruments have moving red limit lines based upon the situation (i.e. startup vs. idle). Our books are based off of Boeing books also. This was true for the last company I worked at also. I previously flew for Ameriflight and I agree mostly with their training strategy. However, it always annoyed me that I was asked to memorize things that had red lines or blue lines. I even used that answer one day during an oral and got a good laugh out of the examiner who happened to agree with me. I knew the number for the checkride, but since there's a line, I would quickly forget whether that line was at 118 or 117 or whatever. I would also agree with ppragman that It's very useful at times to know certain things like Vx. However, if you fly an airplane for a while you'll figure out which of those things that perhaps isn't written down would be good to know. The company I work for is the king of not publishing helpful info, I carry a lot of my own reminders for things like that.
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I won't argue that its a balance. With "electric" airplanes, it isn't exactly feasible to know the ins and outs of values that change - just like I couldn't tell you what the IAS was in knots for barber pole at FL190 on an ISA+10 day, but I do know its .48M. Rather its better to know how the logic works in that situation. There's a lot going on in the jet, and knowing how to interpret some cryptic message from the computer - or what the computer is thinking is probably more important than knowing how to figure out what the real redline is - that said, in a lot of less advanced machines, arming yourself with as much information as possible can be handy. Mnemonics, and practice help - you don't have to be able to build the thing but if its a Lim or an EP it should be known.
 
Nark said:
No, your not dangerous, your dumb because you just go with the flow and don't know why you're doing it.

There is a reason there isnt a wildy popular Discovery Channel show about flying freight in the Dakotas.
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I've read some idiotic things on here before, but this by far takes the cake. Thanks for the laugh, I really needed it after all the slander I heard yesterday.
 
I'm not going into that on a public forum. The Midwest flying community is a small one, all I'm saying.
 
General Comment: Lose the personal insults. If you can't say what needs saying without lobbing personal insults then step away until you can find a different way to say it.
 
jhugz said:
I've read some idiotic things on here before, but this by far takes the cake. Thanks for the laugh, I really needed it after all the slander I heard yesterday.
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Slander is only slander if it isn't true.
 
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