Instrument - Part 61 or Part 141.. ? What would you do?

Thanks for all the replies. I did send out a few emails to a few local flight schools and have not heard back.

As far as number of hours and go - am not too worried about it. I do not see aviation becoming a "full time career" for the next 5 or 6 years, at the very least. More concerned about the quality of instruction and getting the ratings - and then slowly building time.

CFI rating - yes. When? I do not know. First thing is to get the IR ticket done. The problem for me at the moment with building hours is just not finding enough time to go flying. Also lack of GA crowd up here, kinda makes it a lot more difficult to find someone to split costs with.
 
Well - the school I thought was 141; called back. They do not offer 141. Asked me if I was interested in their 61 program. Do not have details yet. Will have to wait and see how it plays out.
 
Douglas said:
I shouldn't have to tell you that starting a quoted post with "fixed it for you", unless it is done for humor, is a jerk move. You've been here long enough, it's time to start acting like it.

What I said was correct per the CFRs.

What YOU were or were not able to do as instructor at a given flight school in California is immaterial to the OP.
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Wow. Take that comment a little personal did ya? It's not just up to me, thats why my comment was left for the student to make up their mind on whether or not they wanted to be exceptional, and not only study their ass off, but also be able to corilate what they are learning in a book quickly into their flying.

To come out and blatently tell me I am a bad instructor? Totally uncalled for. My student pass rate when I was an instructor speaks for itself. In two years as an instructor, I had a total of two students bust rides. One, I never really figured out. The other made the examiner nervous because he flew a 152 down a short field approach with the stall buzzer on the whole way. This comming from a "student" who was a German licensed pilot, and roughly 5000 hours in his log book. And while what you say may be correct per the CFR's, the reality of the situation is the majority of students end up going over what the regs state as the minimum for a certificate or rating.

If I were a mod, for dealing out a low blow like you just did, I would smite the with great vengence!

I also thought I'd just bring this little bit up from the past as well.

Douglas said:
I did mine between 35-40 hours. 141.

Most of our students do theirs 35-45, 141; but average about 50 for private, 141.

Then they can do commercial x-c under IFR, when others are grounded. (For this reason we like to do instrument 141)

If you are just looking at training for the instrument rating there will not be much difference in end total time, if any at all.
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Just sayin....
 
I think it depends if you want to do this as a career.... If this is your career my thoughts are 141 hands down. If you're flying as a hobby 61 may not be a bad choice, just for the savings. From my personal experiences I have found 141 to be more complete training.
 
mshunter said:
Wow. Take that comment a little personal did ya? It's not just up to me, thats why my comment was left for the student to make up their mind on whether or not they wanted to be exceptional, and not only study their ass off, but also be able to corilate what they are learning in a book quickly into their flying.

To come out and blatently tell me I am a bad instructor? Totally uncalled for. My student pass rate when I was an instructor speaks for itself. In two years as an instructor, I had a total of two students bust rides. One, I never really figured out. The other made the examiner nervous because he flew a 152 down a short field approach with the stall buzzer on the whole way. This comming from a "student" who was a German licensed pilot, and roughly 5000 hours in his log book. And while what you say may be correct per the CFR's, the reality of the situation is the majority of students end up going over what the regs state as the minimum for a certificate or rating.

If I were a mod, for dealing out a low blow like you just did, I would smite the with great vengence!

I also thought I'd just bring this little bit up from the past as well.



Just sayin....
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Bandit_Driver said:
:popcorn:
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:( :(
moeflyin said:
I think it depends if you want to do this as a career.... If this is your career my thoughts are 141 hands down. If you're flying as a hobby 61 may not be a bad choice, just for the savings. From my personal experiences I have found 141 to be more complete training.
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Flying as a career, would love to. Not sure what the time frame is. Just busy with work and life generally these days. Hoping that I can get all my tickets done in about 3 years from now. :)
 
mshunter said:
I also thought I'd just bring this little bit up from the past as well.



Just sayin....
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haha, 50 hours was our "private" average as you so plainly bolded it.
Yep, most of my instrument students finished between 35-40 hours. A max of at most of five hours; wouldn't you agree that five hours is indeed "not much time" while still being fewer than 40? :aghast:

Average cost to my students was $3500-$4000 from the first flight post PPL checkride to INST checkride.

And no, I haven't taken anything you've said personally (adverb) since our ATP blow-out.

I feel like you think I've told him to go the 141 route. I've told the OP that 141 requires fewer hours, and that is black and white per the regs. My other posts have been about doing leg work and seeing what *his* situation has to offer. Why? Because there isn't a blanket answer to the 61vs141 debate. I'm not having that debate. You can.

---
P.S. Can I have some FURIOUS ANGER with your "vengeance".
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Bandit_Driver said:
Part 61. Just find a good CFII you are comfortable with.
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I agree, I went part 61 and it hasn't made a difference in the flying career that I have done. The best CFI I ever had did my instrument and commercial. If it's a career you're looking for down the road they will throw your instrument in the trash when you get you ATP anyway ;-)
 
Douglas said:
haha, 50 hours was our "private" average as you so plainly bolded it.
Yep, most of my instrument students finished between 35-40 hours. A max of at most of five hours; wouldn't you agree that five hours is indeed "not much time" while still being fewer than 40? :aghast:

Average cost to my students was $3500-$4000 from the first flight post PPL checkride to INST checkride.
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3500-4000 Sounds like a reasonable amount. :) Way less than any quote I have gotten around here in MN.

moeflyin - Yes, aviation is my fallback career. :) Do not have a timeline - but am working towards getting there.
 
In this thread, we discuss professionals talking to one another like they are children. *unimpressed expression*

Bernoulli Fan said:
I spent $7,660.55 to get my instrument. This was in SoCal, but back in 2007. FYI
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Yeah, that's about what mine cost, plus or minus a few cents, back in SoCal, in 07-08.
 
I would say that choosing 141 vs 61 is a small consideration compared to finding a good flight school. Any good 141 flight school will allow you to drop to part 61 if it will save you some money. However, to answer your question based on what you have said so far, I would go with part 141. In no particular order, here's why:
1. A larger 141 program will have more experience dealing with getting TSA approval for foriegn nationals.
2. If you plan on seriously preparing beforehand using study materials and FSX, you will race through a 141 program. A 141 program rewards those that are willing to work really hard towards the rating. If you are unwilling or unable to put in the appropriate time studying, or are struggling with one of the concepts, 141 will take more time, and cost more money. (But, it will never cost more than part 61, as you would have the same difficulties part 61 as you did part 141.)
3. Yes, you will need to go out, and fly some cross countries to build time, but it is far better to do them after you get your instrument ticket, as you can do them in the IFR system, and be learning some much more valuable information than you would doing VFR X/C work.
 
Hammertime said:
I would say that choosing 141 vs 61 is a small consideration compared to finding a good flight school. Any good 141 flight school will allow you to drop to part 61 if it will save you some money. However, to answer your question based on what you have said so far, I would go with part 141. In no particular order, here's why:
2. If you plan on seriously preparing beforehand using study materials and FSX, you will race through a 141 program. A 141 program rewards those that are willing to work really hard towards the rating. If you are unwilling or unable to put in the appropriate time studying, or are struggling with one of the concepts, 141 will take more time, and cost more money. (But, it will never cost more than part 61, as you would have the same difficulties part 61 as you did part 141.)
.
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You need to check beforehand if the school will allow you to drop back to from 141 to 61 without a penalty.

I have flown under both and taught under part 61.

141 never costing more thant 61 is pure BS. 141 in general is more expensive than 61 instruction, the planes cost more per hour, the instructors cost more per hour, plus you have more required BS to complete. 141 schools are there to make money and be pilot mills.

If you find a good 61 school and CFI you will get the same rating as you do from a 141 school and most likely spend LESS money than if you went from the 141 school due to the CFII and aircraft rentals being cheaper and no required lessons to complete. I, for example, was ready for my IR check ride. I had the hours, but still had to fly 5 more lessons because that is what the 141 school required. You can't take your ride, even if ready, until you have completed lessons x thru y. Had it been 61 I could have saved several hours of useless flying and the cash.
 
I used to do 61 IFR instruction in my 172 when I lived in Seattle 15 years ago. Back then, any 141 school would have been much more expensive hourly wise and maybe not had a sim like I did. The 50 hour X-C requirement would bring the the total price of going 61 up to match going 141 but you had more hours and more general experience when you took the ride, which I think was a good thing. As far as quality, I had been a CFI for 20 years teaching out of my own airplane which was well equipped and maintained. 141 schools? They got their CFI's from their own programs and typically weren't high time. I tried to get my students exposed to as much actual IFR as possible and hopefully an ILS to mins and a missed approach. I doubt any of that is in a 141 syllabus. In the end, it's not about 141 or 61 when you speak of quality. It's about your desire, attitude, and how good your CFI is. I realize the OP was looking at it from a price standpoint so YMMV a lot depending on your location. It sounds like your options are pretty limited. If you want to do it cheap, I'd look into Sheble's 10 day program in AZ.
 
Do this:

Get some basic instrument instruction. Climbs, turns, descents, unusual attitude recovery and maybe some basic VOR/GPS navigation.
Go poke holes in the sky timebuilding with a safety pilot, refining the skills above.
Finish the written exam/ground school.
Come back, and get the rest of your instruction.

That is probably the most economical way.
 
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