Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Most freight airplanes are. Hell, TKS is certified to go into severe! I don't think heated wings are even certified to do that.
CNN Video: Safety Rule Could Create Pilot Shortage
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Most freight airplanes are. Hell, TKS is certified to go into severe! I don't think heated wings are even certified to do that.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
That doesn't make sense. By definition, 'severe' anything is beyond the airplanes ability to deal with it. In other words, 'severe' icing means icing beyond the capability of the airplane's anti-ice system.
Why would anybody certify that? That's just dumb.
block30
Well-Known Member
110% agree. Other pilots avoid ice or have performance to climb above the ice. Freight dogs live in ice.
block30
Well-Known Member
I think there is going to be change in icing severity definitions because of this. For now, I believe tests have shown TKS is pretty darn effective! I would love to fly with TKS to try it out!
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
If the system changes, so be it, but I'd like to see the rules finalized before we just throw it out there. I'm not overly familiar with the TKS system, but I'd like to see it done and proven before it become standard equipment on prop turning airframes because it's marketable.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
We all know that's not going to happen. They'll throw them in a simulator and call it a day, and the FAA will be satisfied with that. The only way to truly get experience is to get out there and fly for a living. Expecting someone to get their first job already having such experiences is unrealistic.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I should say, certified for known severe and SLD(ie FAs and pireps). It's certified, but it's still scary. It never let me down on max flow. Normal flow is interesting. It doesn't keep it clean, but it chunks off at different thicknesses depending on the severity. I had it to where it was building up to around an inch before falling off one night. I decided "screw that!" and threw it on max flow. 
IIRC, it was my company(FLX) that did the testing on the caravan. I'll look for pics. They went up in freezing rain for 19 minutes. The protected surfaces were clear and the unprotected had over 3 inches of ice on it. It's definitely effective.
IIRC, it was my company(FLX) that did the testing on the caravan. I'll look for pics. They went up in freezing rain for 19 minutes. The protected surfaces were clear and the unprotected had over 3 inches of ice on it. It's definitely effective.
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
I dunno, make everyone fly freight first and earn the valuable experience before flying pax.
I am curious to see how a current gen pilot handles the day when everything hits the fan. CFI in glass->automated regional jet->automated heavy airliner just doesn't sound like quality experience all around. IMHO of course. Thoughts?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
All of this is missing the point. It's not realistic to expect every new airline pilot to first have flown part 135 in icing conditions, even if every 135 airplane in the country was certified for FIKI conditions. The demand for pilots is too high at part 121 carriers for every pilot to first be funneled through these other operations to gain experience first. Pilots are going to have to continue to come predominantly from an instructing background. And that background isn't conducive to collecting a bunch of actual instrument time, or any time in icing conditions. There is some experience that pilots simply aren't going to have yet when starting out at an airline. We just have to accept that and find ways to deal with it.
block30
Well-Known Member
I have heard from first hand accounts TKS is VERY effective. 'specially for the notorious V-a-n!
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
FLX has had TKS for about 10 years on 210s and Barons. I believe CASW has had it on their Commanders for about as long. Works great.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
I dunno, make everyone fly freight first and earn the valuable experience before flying pax.
I think it already happened with the Air France deal.
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
I think we've dealt with it in the past by making them be FO's first
Sent from 1865 by telegraph....
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
I think we've dealt with it in the past by making them be FO's first
Yeah, pretty much the way I look at it, but some of the guys around here seem to expect a newhire FO to practically have a lunar landing logged before being allowed to fly a CRJ from the right seat. You know, despite the fact that many of them got hired with under 1,000 hours themselves.
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
Makes me wonder how much airline experience one is supposed to have before they can get their first airline job
z987k
Well-Known Member
Makes me wonder how much airline experience one is supposed to have before they can get their first airline job
Well that'd bring it round full circle like everything else. Must have X experience, yet we are the only possible way to acquire said experience.
trafficinsight
Well-Known Member
Actually I'm reminded of a couple job postings I've seen for non aviation jobs.
"Entry level X"
"5 years experience required"
Methinks you don't understand the meaning of "entry level"
"Entry level X"
"5 years experience required"
Methinks you don't understand the meaning of "entry level"
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
I don't think anyone is disputing that point. In fact, I think that's the actual goal of the 1500-hour rule.
I think the point of discussion is as to if that "first job" should involve 50-70 paying passengers being behind you.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
Makes me wonder how much airline experience one is supposed to have before they can get their first airline job
It's not "airline experience" that's needed. It's aviation experience...judgment...airmanship. Something that can be built in any kind of airplane, but requires exposure to as many different types of situations and conditions as is humanly possible.
Let's not forget that any monkey can horse around an airplane from point A to B. The vast majority of aircraft hauling people and things around in a 121 operation are very easy to fly, and most of the circumstances they fly into don't require any significant level of judgment or skill (from a basic competent professional pilot perspective, of course) to safely resolve. The FMS and autopilot do the majority of the actual maneuvering of the aircraft anyway. It's usually a very safe and boring business.
The reason that there are two guys sitting in the front of the airplane are for when stuff does not go according to plan. In order to deal with those instances, pilots must have a deeper "experience bag" to reach into than when things are going fine. This is why we know names like Haynes and Sullenberger, because they had catastrophic problems that they were able to solve using their airmanship. Airlines are hiring people to be there when things go bad and ensure that the passengers arrive safely and the iron arrives undamaged.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
So, where do you suggest people be forced to go to gain dual engine failure experience and water landing experience with no engnies, turbine disc failure and complete loss of hydraulic experience?
We can't argue on one hand that we want pilots with a light years worth of depth of experience but have no realistic way of gaining it. Folks like Hacker, Boris, UAL, etc are the exception, they were all born aviation gods with thousands of hours of turbine PIC (SPIFR TO BOOT!!!!!!) but for the rest of the mere mortals on the 3rd mudball from the large fusion generator, what's the plan? Only the above mentioned get the gold star and the rest get to beg at the table for scraps?
We can't argue on one hand that we want pilots with a light years worth of depth of experience but have no realistic way of gaining it. Folks like Hacker, Boris, UAL, etc are the exception, they were all born aviation gods with thousands of hours of turbine PIC (SPIFR TO BOOT!!!!!!) but for the rest of the mere mortals on the 3rd mudball from the large fusion generator, what's the plan? Only the above mentioned get the gold star and the rest get to beg at the table for scraps?