CNN Video: Safety Rule Could Create Pilot Shortage

Interesting video...

<rant>
I am just a lowly 30 year old chicken hawk instructor who broke 500 hours (pathetic) after getting my licenses from a mill in 08. Having two children since then put a road block in my career aspirations, this has given me three years to reflect and contemplate my future in the industry.

This video just makes me shrug. These kids in the video scare me, and I find their attitudes immensely dangerous. The mentality which one of the students says he is going to forget the knowledge he has gained if he must go fly "single" engine aircraft is ridiculous. I have learned so much more instructing over the past 250 hours than in the preceding flight time getting my ratings. Students like the ones shown in the video scare me because I believe they think they know all they need to know to be safe in the cockpit. How many instructors do you know where you have watched your students do various things during training that was immensely dangerous without any clue of how much risk they opened themselves up to? Finding them behind the airplane and blindly straddling the thin line between disaster and a safe flight.


Again, I am just a chicken hawk instructor. I am no expert, and these are just my opinions. I do believe more pilots should go out and work the ramp for part 121 operation for a summer/winter. I served two years as a ramp monkey. Over a year of it as a supervisor wrangling the kittens to park CRJ in the middle of a DTW Blizzard. From there you get a taste of the "real" part 121 operation. It isn't as glamorous as Pan Am makes it out to be. Glycol however does taste sweet.

Can I say I have not been infected with SJS? To some degree I have. But I understand what I am getting into, I have done my research. I know I won't make enough compensation for the responsibilities in which the position requires. I know the QOL will not always be ideal. I will miss birthdays, events, and holidays.

But flying for a living has its upside as well. One day I could be freezing, and hours later enjoying a warm afternoon (the true is also for the reverse).The job gives me Free peanuts and flight benefits(for now). The smell of Jet A is better than coffee (some might argue). And lastly we get the freedom to decide who gets the delay. Is it the Ramp, Gate, Catering or Fuelers (usually its Catering).

What I gather is that most of you are started out just like I am. You enjoyed a special passion for flying. I may, or may not feel the same in ten years. But for now I am optimistic, especially with the 1500 hour rule on the horizon.

There are aspects of the 1500 hour rule I do not agree with though, such as the lower hour requirements to gain a restricted ATP license by attending an accredited university. Do universities really make better pilots than mom and pop part 61 schools? I’ll just say “follow the money”.

By requiring 1500 hours to be eligible to become a FO for part 121 raises the bar for the profession. It has already begun forcing the airlines to change their business model. You can’t expect pilots to take a $20k FO 121 job over a $35k Monday through Friday Cargo Job or $50k Corporate FO position.

The future is the great unknown. In 10 years ask me if I feel the same way. I will probably be a 9 year FO for some fly by night operation, but who knows I might get lucky.
</rant>
You may not agree with me, and I respect that. This is just my opinion. Safe Travels.
Crazyjeep
 
That guy screams macho attitude throughout the video. Makes those of us that are at a 141 university look bad. Having a little time in a jet is nice, but I'm sure it doesn't translate to the 121 world easily (like someone said we typically have little actual IFR time, mountain flying etc). I'm currently in my second year at a 141 university and while the 1500 hour rule will create restrictions I do believe it is for the best. I agree that a someone with a wet cmel license (250 hours) isn't ready for flying an RJ (or Dash 8, they're coming back right??) with 50-90 people. Almost every CFI and everyone on here has said they've learned more instructing than they did in a lot of their flight courses/training. Yet a lot of my peers don't realize and recognize this yet, and I'm not sure if they will (they all have regional jet flying embedded in their blood apparently).

I'm also planning on double majoring in economics and that "aviation" degree. I started to realize I needed another option besides the "aviation" degree as what use does that do for me outside of aviation, hell it doesn't seem to really make a difference in the industry anyway. That being said those of you in the industry and post and here I really appreciate it. At a school like mine they just talk about the glamour of flying corporate or 121, instead of the struggles and the realities (while still having fun, I think), which again a lot of my peers seem to not understand :\.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
And remember, the simulator is totally representative of line operations...

Ha! I crack myself up sometimes.
Sent from Seat 3D
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I actually thought the -145 sim wasn't too bad. Compared to the 1900D I operated, it was quite an improvement.

As for the goobers in that video, one of the points of the 1500 Hr rule was to make some actual Hobbs time a requisite so they'd figure out they'd need more than puppy mill propaganda to operate in the real world. Since that's the only real basis of their overconfidence, a little time to cool off might work well for them.
 
deadpixel said:
(or Dash 8, they're coming back right??) w
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The -8 is alive and well. Probably the best seat/mpg airplane that is currently used for a regional aircraft. Look at horizon. All Q400 airline. Couple of operators on the east coast as well.
I seem to remember a thing on the 400 vs a crj200, and the 400 burned something like half the fuel while only being 85 knots slower and carrying 20 more people.
 
z987k said:
The -8 is alive and well. Probably the best seat/mpg airplane that is currently used for a regional aircraft. Look at horizon. All Q400 airline. Couple of operators on the east coast as well.
I seem to remember a thing on the 400 vs a crj200, and the 400 burned something like half the fuel while only being 85 knots slower and carrying 20 more people.
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For the most part, I'd rather ride in a Q, than in an RJ.
 
Firebird2XC said:
I actually thought the -145 sim wasn't too bad. Compared to the 1900D I operated, it was quite an improvement.

As for the goobers in that video, one of the points of the 1500 Hr rule was to make some actual Hobbs time a requisite so they'd figure out they'd need more than puppy mill propaganda to operate in the real world. Since that's the only real basis of their overconfidence, a little time to cool off might work well for them.
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Flight characteristics wise, sure.
 
z987k said:
I seem to remember a thing on the 400 vs a crj200, and the 400 burned something like half the fuel while only being 85 knots slower and carrying 20 more people.
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On routes of less than 350 miles it makes sense to have a Dash (old skool or megawacker). Longer than that and the efficiencies go away.
 
He lost me at, "I've been flying a jet...I know exactly what I'm doing."

Most of that argument, about what a "waste" it's going to be to have to bridge the flight time between college graduation and eligibility to work at a Regional, is complete crap. It ignores the difference between airmanship (which is an aggregate of all a pilot has seen and done, and is completely portable between airframes) and the technical skill of operating the aircraft.

The idea that airmanship will atrophy while bridging that gap is total horsecrap. All of those hours -- even if gained doing a job like banner tow or whatever example they want to come up with -- will build valuable airmanship that will pay big dividends in 121 flying. The monkey skills can be learned and unlearned in a very short period of time.

The fact that those Purdue students don't grasp the difference, and think that losing the monkey skills is a significant detractor (and do not recognize the airmanship skills they'll be gaining) is indicative enough that they're not ready to fly people around for hire.
 
Hacker15e said:
He lost me at, "I've been flying a jet...I know exactly what I'm doing."
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Thank goodness he wasn't around when all of those "jet skills" would have gone to pot because he would be hired as a flight engineer. :)
 
What I don't like is that he doesn't know WHY we are all laughing when he says "I'm ready for the jet." a lot of us can look back at 3000+ hrs of flying and just be happy we are here. He doesn't understand why he really isn't ready.

It's not really his fault. He has been lied to by his mentors. Mentors who also don't know why he isn't ready for the line because they have never been a line pilot for thousands of hours. This incidentally is why it's important to be a mentor in aviation, our experience is unique and can help people. Even if they are mega nerd college kids that don't seem like too much fun.

In a way we have all been there. However I would like to think that I remember correctly finishing my CMEL and wondering how I would get to 135 minimums. I wasn't upset my inexperience was keeping my hands off of an airliner full of passengers.
 
Hacker15e said:
He lost me at, "I've been flying a jet...I know exactly what I'm doing."

Most of that argument, about what a "waste" it's going to be to have to bridge the flight time between college graduation and eligibility to work at a Regional, is complete crap. It ignores the difference between airmanship (which is an aggregate of all a pilot has seen and done, and is completely portable between airframes) and the technical skill of operating the aircraft.

The idea that airmanship will atrophy while bridging that gap is total horsecrap. All of those hours -- even if gained doing a job like banner tow or whatever example they want to come up with -- will build valuable airmanship that will pay big dividends in 121 flying. The monkey skills can be learned and unlearned in a very short period of time.

The fact that those Purdue students don't grasp the difference, and think that losing the monkey skills is a significant detractor (and do not recognize the airmanship skills they'll be gaining) is indicative enough that they're not ready to fly people around for hire.
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You said aggregate and atrophy...I AM ON BOARD!! But seriously...besides the abnormally large vocabularly for the venue, good post!
 
I think you guys are being entirely too hard on these kids. I don't mean to defend what they said, but I certainly mean to defend them. They simply don't know what they don't know yet. In another ten years, they'll look back on those comments and think that they looked like fools. Why? Because they'll have the experience that they don't realize that they need yet. Right now, they've just been brainwashed by a school, and being hired by a regional at 21 years old with 400 hours has just been the norm for the past few years. It's all that they know. They weren't around to see how it was before, and they don't have enough experience yet to realize that the little bit they've learned in that Beechjet or CRJ FTD hasn't really taught them much of anything. To make it seem as though they are arrogant, macho, entitled, or whatever else is extreme, and probably has no link to reality. They're just kids that want to be airline pilots. Lay off, I say.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I think you guys are being entirely too hard on these kids. I don't mean to defend what they said, but I certainly mean to defend them. They simply don't know what they don't know yet. In another ten years, they'll look back on those comments and think that they looked like fools. Why? Because they'll have the experience that they don't realize that they need yet. Right now, they've just been brainwashed by a school, and being hired by a regional at 21 years old with 400 hours has just been the norm for the past few years. It's all that they know. They weren't around to see how it was before, and they don't have enough experience yet to realize that the little bit they've learned in that Beechjet or CRJ FTD hasn't really taught them much of anything. To make it seem as though they are arrogant, macho, entitled, or whatever else is extreme, and probably has no link to reality. They're just kids that want to be airline pilots. Lay off, I say.
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Yeah, that. We were all that way at one point in time, and now we know better.

What upsets me is the fact that the administrators at the schools are teaching this nonsense to their students. These kids didn't call CNN and complain, the school's admin did and picked a few students to put in front of the camera. At my school, all the students were asked to make comments on the NPRM opposing the new rule. In our CFI meeting this past week one of our chiefs asked us to do the same. I had some pointed questions for him and i'm sure he isn't happy with me.
 
USMCmech said:
Yeah, that. We were all that way at one point in time, and now we know better.

What upsets me is the fact that the administrators at the schools are teaching this nonsense to their students. These kids didn't call CNN and complain, the school's admin did and picked a few students to put in front of the camera. At my school, all the students were asked to make comments on the NPRM opposing the new rule. In our CFI meeting this past week one of our chiefs asked us to do the same. I had some pointed questions for him and i'm sure he isn't happy with me.
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Yup. This is pretty much how it was at ERAU Daytona as well. I think these schools are pissed because they may see a drop off in enrollment when people realize they need to build 1500 hours before they can jump in a jet. Long gone are they days when I Riddle kiddie would get that call from ASA before they graduated.

I second that above comment about brainwashing. ERAU poured it down our throats. They have lost their sense of reality I think.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I think you guys are being entirely too hard on these kids. I don't mean to defend what they said, but I certainly mean to defend them. They simply don't know what they don't know yet.
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Although the "we were once that ignorant.." point is a valid one, the counter-point is that all of our collective opinions being expressed here are supposed to be the antidote to that. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't just criticize that dude to make fun of him -- I do it for everyone else who watches the video and reads the post and is in a similar station in life as the guy depicted in the video. I don't get any particular pleasure from busting on a dude who is ignorant; I'm an instructor in a formal flying training program, so if I got my rocks off on that, I'd have more than ample opportunities to do that daily while on the job teaching 22 year olds with 100 hours under their belt to fly supersonic jets without killing themselves or anyone else.

The whole point of the JetCareers ethos is for experienced folks to pass their wisdom on to the next group of people who will follow in their footsteps. I'm hoping that the under-1500-hours crowd who is angry about having to wait to get their first 121 job are listening to those of us who are trying to make them smarter.

USMCmech said:
teaching this nonsense to their students.
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Agreed....with a heavy emphasis on greed, since that's the motivating factor behind the pilot-mills whole attitude and business strategy. I don't have a problem with a business that is trying to make money, but I do if they're being disingenuous about what they're teaching. Those instructors are certainly partially to blame.

That being said, the students aren't in North Korea -- they have access to plenty of information from the "outside world" from their academia, and can just as easily do a little learning on their own and understand the error of their ways. There are plenty of aviators who are more than willing to help them learn that for themselves.
 
Derg said:
Thank goodness he wasn't around when all of those "jet skills" would have gone to pot because he would be hired as a flight engineer. :)
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But then he WOULD have known exactly what he was doing... Unlike the pilots he would be flying with. :cool:
 
Hacker15e said:
The whole point of the JetCareers ethos is for experienced folks to pass their wisdom on to the next group of people who will follow in their footsteps. I'm hoping that the under-1500-hours crowd who is angry about having to wait to get their first 121 job are listening to those of us who are trying to make them smarter.
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And we can all do that without making fun of the kids who just don't know any better yet. Imparting information is wonderful. Attacking the inexperienced and ignorant is not. That's more like something I would expect to find at APC. Aren't we a little better than that here?
 
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