IFR Training Flight Plan

Ian_J

Ian_J

Hubschrauber Flieger
Staff member
Scenario: I'm at airport X, want to fly to airport Y for a practice approach, then end up at Z. Airport Y is no where on the way to Z. Without filing two plans, what is the best way file this? (And I do put a request for practice approach at Y in remarks.)

The issue I have is at X I get my full clearance, but as I'm passing through Z's airspace to get to Y they just clear me straight to Z and sound like they have no idea I ever wanted to to go to Y.

This is obviously not a really big deal, but anything I could do to avoid confusion is a plus.
 
TowJoe's answer would clear up most of the issue, assuming the controller reads the strip. In the terminal environment (unsure about ARTCC) we only see the first 13 characters though, so the controller will only see Practice Appr. We know the gist of what you're doing, just don't be surprised when there is a little confusion on what approaches and where.
 
For what it is worth, in addition to what you are already doing, I'd phrase it, "Bradley Appch, Cessna x, requesting practice ILS GON, rest of route unchanged." I'd do that in the area of intersection BRISS.
That's how I used to phrase it and seemed to work well with minimal radio congestion.
 
Ian J said:
Scenario: I'm at airport X, want to fly to airport Y for a practice approach, then end up at Z. Airport Y is no where on the way to Z. Without filing two plans, what is the best way file this? (And I do put a request for practice approach at Y in remarks.)

The issue I have is at X I get my full clearance, but as I'm passing through Z's airspace to get to Y they just clear me straight to Z and sound like they have no idea I ever wanted to to go to Y.

This is obviously not a really big deal, but anything I could do to avoid confusion is a plus.
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You filing a 175? If so, place in the remarks section an enroute delay at the destination it's at. What you do the delay for, ATC doesn't care; they'll just know it's there.

C'mon man.....I expect these kinds of questions from AH-64 and OH-68D pilots! :D
 
MikeD said:
You filing a 175? If so, place in the remarks section an enroute delay at the destination it's at. What you do the delay for, ATC doesn't care; they'll just know it's there.

C'mon man.....I expect these kinds of questions from AH-64 and OH-68D pilots! :D
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Oh geez... our 175s go no where except ops, yet they're all filled out per the GP including the enroute delays and stopovers and other minutia required. If you need a class on the GP, I'm your guy. ;)

To clarify, having flown zillions of IFR flights I am interested in what ATC sees in the flight plans (the 13 character things was new to me... thanks!). I'm also curious how my initial clearance (which was basically cleared as filed) somehow got lost in the system. I can see it if BDL decided my route was retarded and offered me direct rather than going all the way to GON (only if they didn't see my remarks), but BDL seemed to be genuinely confused about the GON part - as if they never saw that part of the plan at all. In fact, my last clearance before NY switched me was direct Briss, direct GON. BDL knew nothing about it.

The real reason I asked this (because honestly I don't care that much - a quick clarification with ATC and I was on my way) is that the new guy I was training asked how that could happen and I don't know. I assumed if one controller gave me a clearance it would be passed along to the next.
 
Ian J said:
Oh geez... our 175s go no where except ops, yet they're all filled out per the GP including the enroute delays and stopovers and other minutia required. If you need a class on the GP, I'm your guy. ;)
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Is the "void time" still required to be written into the Remarks section?

Cool thing is that out here in the southwest....AZ, NM, etc......if you file a 175, or even do multiples of what you're trying to do here; it gets done right and efficiently. Because ATC has nothing else to do. :)
 
If it's a -175, don't even bother with it. Chances are the airman at the air/base ops duty desk can't be bothered enough to walk 3 feet to the fax machine and back to file your plan. I tried to file for 4 of us leaving Nellis a couple weeks back, called base ops to verify that they got it ("yes sir, we have it right here"), walked to the jet, and as I was getting the right motor online and turned the radios on, I was greeted by -1 working with clnc delivery to re-file for all 4 of us for a coast to coast ccx. I always thought it was just a Navy thing, but I guess I was wrong. On the plus side, base ops duty NCO's facebook was probably not unattended to during this period of time. Seriously, I have yet to see a DD-175 successfully filed, regardless of how much checking and double checking took place before walk time. And they wonder why we insist on filing one leg and then just using 1-800-WX-BRIEF........
 
Ian J said:
Oh geez... our 175s go no where except ops, yet they're all filled out per the GP including the enroute delays and stopovers and other minutia required. If you need a class on the GP, I'm your guy.
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Boom....truth bomb
 
Do the regs still require you to file a 175, being DoD? I remember we had to, if we were at a DoD field.

I do remember 1801s always being filed correctly.....but probably because of the nature of them.

See AMG, if you were in a VMFA(AW) or VAQ squadron, you could know it'd be done right because the double-anchor guys would make sure of it.
 
MikeD said:
See AMG, if you were in a VMFA(AW) or VAQ squadron, you could know it'd be done right because the double-anchor guys would make sure of it.
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At least we would have someone other than myself to blame for the problem, and to carry my helmet bag of course :) Seriously though, yes, you are required to file a -175 if departing a mil airfield and not on a local area flight using a stereo route. You are not required to file the entire way, and you can use 1-800-WX-BRIEF for follow on legs, though you are supposed to file a -175 and use govt wx agencies to the max extent possible.

Maybe part of the issue at Nellis was basically filing INS direct for both legs, as we were pushing the limits of fuel reserves, but as it were, we ended up getting it, in RVSM airspace no-less :)
 
If they don't know I have always had the clearance controller ask me what we were doing and what ever they put in the system the rest of the controllers understood.
 
I cannot speak to the best way to file the -175 (as I have always been on the civilian side of it) but at stockton we always ended up with two clearances, one to SCK (even if it had a Dx+xx at SCK) in the remarks, most of the time when approach was vectoring someone for the practice approach and they wanted to go somewhere else on the go the exchange would go like this

RoperXX: NorCal Apch, roperXX climb out SCK, request ILS 29R
NorCal Apch: RoperXX, NorCal Apch, radar contact four miles west SCK, maintain 3,000. turn left heading 110 vectors ILS 29R, how will this approach terminate.
RoperXX: (Read back) On the go, IFR dest.
and a clearance would follow. Also, if you have an IFR plan filed from the delay airport and you decide to do some vfr pattern work (a normal event at SCK) tower can, work load permitting, get you the clearance while airborne. I have had to send a t38 out vfr a couple times due to work load, and I honestly hated doing that, just because I didn't like having to work about what he was going to do VFR at 300+kts
 
Honestly, VFR in a pointy nose jet isn't bad at all, though your concern is appreciated at least. Aside from the extra fuel burn inherent with cruising around below class A, it's nothing scary, and we do it all the time when just transiting a short distance to and from bombing/lower altitude ranges. Granted I have a good air-to-air radar that the T-38 guys don't, but a good lookout is as important for us as it is for everyone else. I've flown all over socal, the west, and the mid-atlantic/SE VFR in a Hornet, and have actually been far more scared in a light single doing so than in the jet. I will say that the one thing that controllers seem to not realize (and I wouldn't expect them to), is that we 90% of the time, do not have the GPS waypoint that you are wanting to send us to, and when we ask for an initial vector, it is just buying us time to break out the high chart and not find it, break out the approach plates and not find it, break out the IFR supp and of course not find it, and then finally cry uncle. Breaking out a 6 ft chart in a 2.5 ft cockpit, while trying to fly formation and switch radios, and then manually plug in a random waypoint on the off chance we find it, is always super fantastic :) Not upset or annoyed, and like I said, I wouldn't expect anyone to assume this about us (I mean every other Tom Dick and Harry is flying around with a G1000 with all GPS wypts in their load)..........but if any controllers out there are wondering why we have such trouble with such seemingly simple directions, this is why. Love - ///AMG
 
Ah, well I am not so worried about the hornets, the talon guys scare me because they only have uniform radios, which mean they do not get to enjoy the international pilots that are also training. As far as what us tower guys gave them from a clearance it was either direct to a vortac or a vector. I have yet to be able to play with the fighters on radar yet.
 
Fair enough, all valid points. Normally we get vectors or vortacs, though my personal favorite where I want to jump out of the radio and hug you guys are those 1000 nm ins direct clearances :)
 
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