SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
When I came to AirTran, I was no longer an ALPA pilot. I did just fine. Don't worry about me. You should worry about how long Branson is going to keep funneling money into a bottomless pit.
Go Jets Questions
- Thread starter brian434
- Start date
When I came to AirTran, I was no longer an ALPA pilot. I did just fine. Don't worry about me. You should worry about how long Branson is going to keep funneling money into a bottomless pit.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Ok, and when Virgin started, they had your FO rates to go by, along with your Captain rates from years 1-5.Thank you for pointing that out! I'm quite proud of that fact.
Wrong. Our captains topped out at $154/hr compared to $150/hr for a topped out Virgin captain. And that was under a contract signed well over a decade ago. Our FO rates were lower, but again, that was a contract signed in 2000. You can't compare your rates to a contract signed 12 years ago. You have to compare your rates to contracts right now.
Virgin is industry average for the A320. Above US Air and United, below Jetblue and Delta.
http://vapilot.org/
Nice how you chose airlines that are leading VA, and not a single one below it. Why? In your list, Airtran does not operate the A320. Neither does Alaska, nor Southwest. Why don't you pick Airbus carriers. Throw in 2nd year payrates for A320 at United/continental. And then US Airways. Where are you now? In fact, from the list of Airbus A320 carriers, the order goes US Air, United, Virgin, Jetblue, Delta.
Same comment as above. Why have you left off the airlines paying below Virgin? Where is United/Continental and US Air in your comparison? Compare apples to apples and compare A320 carriers. You will once again find the order to be US Air, United, Virgin, JetBlue, Delta.
And to throw a wrench in your comparison: there is NO 4th year captain at ANY airline you mentioned, except Virgin! SWA 4th year Captain? Nope. SWA and Delta are looking at a decade (or longer) for any junior captains. Compare it to United and US Air, and you will not find any 4 year Captains. In fact, 4 years at United Airlines puts you on the unemployment line.
Closest to Airtran? Why do you compare us with you? What about United? US Air? Or do you ignore ALPA carriers that operate under concessionary contracts? For an A320 carrier, we're middle of the pack. When ALPA carriers like US Air and United were forced wage cuts in bankruptcy, it didn't set a good playing field for any new A320 entrant. It's not anything to be proud of, but I'm calling a spade a spade.
BS. The first round of wage cuts at legacies started after 9/11, too early for Jetblue to make a meaningful difference. Some of your legacies voluntarily gave up paycuts! Don't point your fingers at Virgin or Jetblue for that. Accept the fact that your ALPA brothers were either duped or fooled into thinking paycuts would have helped, and your ALPA brothers accepted paycuts.
Oh stop spinning it. The tone was quite clear. He cites AA as the example of the last legacy carrier to go through bankruptcy, and how the true legacies are gone, that now they are low cost legacies, and that SWA has a challenge in deaing with these leaner and meaner low cost legacies.[/quote]
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Really dude? I heard you were one of the major driving forces to drive ALPA onto property, replacing NPA. And you became ALPA, and then a national ALPA office holder. Just keepin 'em honest.
And don't worry, I'll take my chances as opposed to a regional airline in bankruptcy that's parking half its fleet.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Your argument would make sense if the Virgin rates of today were the same as the Virgin rates from when Virgin started, but they aren't. When Virgin started up, their pay rates were roughly equivalent to 70-seat RJ rates at the better regionals. They weren't comparing their rates to ours, because our rates (even under our old contract that had been amendable for years) were far above the original Virgin rates. Only SkyBus had rates similar to the original Virgin rates. Thankfully they're no longer around to cause damage.
Nice try, but pay rates go by seats, not by specific equipment type. You're simply trying to winnow the pack down to just the carriers who are still operating under bankruptcy agreements, rather than the carriers that actually represent the current bargaining cycle. In reality, 737s and DC9 variants are smaller than your Airbus, yet the industry standard for those smaller airplanes is far higher than your rates.
Since I'm not registered, I can't see what this is. I only get a front page, then a request to register for anything else.
When determining an industry standard, you never include carriers that are already in Section 6 negotiations. Those carriers represent the last bargaining cycle, not the current one. Therefore, USAirways and United shouldn't be included, because their rates are outdated and likely soon to be replaced with the rates of the new bargaining cycle.
I was simply yielding to your request to only compare the pay rates that are actually being used at Virgin. You can't have it both ways, demanding that I not compare your top-out rates, but then refusing to allow me to compare our rates that are for the same longevity years that your pilots get. If you'd prefer, I can compare your 4-year CA rate to the 12-year rate at Delta, but that just makes your rates look even worse. I was generous.
The first round of pay cuts following 9/11 were relatively minor. A 15% cut at NWA, for example. The big cuts came later in bankruptcy, and that's when management made the arguments to the judges by specifically pointing to the JetBlue wages. As much as you'd like to, you can't change history. This did, in fact, happen.
You're right. I'm sure you've heard more from our CEO than I have.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
True. That only happened after the NPA imploded, however. My plan when I went to AirTran was to fly my trips and go home, never getting involved in union politics again. It was only after the NPA had a complete meltdown (police were actually called to the union office), that I decided to get involved. Hard to sit back and do nothing when people are messing with your career.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Not sure what exactly it was back in 2006, but I know what it was before and after April 1 this year.
Compare aircraft type to aircraft type. By your argument, ALPA at Spirit sold out on the A321 with 215 seats because they didn't consider that to be like a 767
, or the A320 for 178 seats shold have paid the same as a 757 industry average rate. Pass that memo onto Spirit's ALPA team.They should be included. And get real, US Air ain't gettin any new rates with their DOH gold standard dream. United? Good luck, I'd like to see it. By the way, Eagle consistently used Pinnacle in their industry average index (IAI) adjustment for pay raises, and guess what? Pinnacle had a 1999 agreement that was amednable in 2005. Never mind that, it was still used. Forget your pipe dream that carriers under section 6 are just "around the corner" with the rates of a new bargaining cycle. Pinnacle didn't see that for 5 years! Airtran didn't see it for what? 5 years? No one ignores these carriers just because they are in section 6 negotiations.
Do it by all means, but compare us to A320 operators like United and US Air. Remind me where 4 years seniority gets you at United Airlines today.
You can paint Jetblue badly all you want, but the bottom line is still that your ALPA brothers were duped into paycuts, some they voted in themselvse, and others by force in bankruptcy. Nothing changes the fact that JetBlue and Virgin make more today than pilots at US Air and United on the A320.
You're right. I'm sure you've heard more from our CEO than I have.
Have you even read that letter? Post it to a neutral party and they'll give you a clear and concise interpretation of that letter.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
Just keepin 'em honest with facts that have not been posted. Apples need to be compared with apples.
But by all means, back to the regular scheduled topic of this thread..................... GoJets?
DPApilot
GUYSH! GUYSH! GUYSH!
So under this mindset, if I was hired at Silver, I must have bought my job because the company's assets they're operating out of used to be a PFT joint?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Compare aircraft type to aircraft type. By your argument, ALPA at Spirit sold out on the A321 with 215 seats because they didn't consider that to be like a 767
You might want to look at what Spirit's rates get to by the end of their CBA. You may be surprised at what you find. If you get a union and a CBA that ratchets up your rates to industry standard by the end of the deal, then I'll cheer it on as a victory for the profession.
I think you'll be surprised. In any case, whether they get new rates "around the corner" or not, their rates do not represent the industry standard, because they are rates from the last bargaining cycle.
Eagle's calculation of industry average is not the same thing as industry standard. Two different terms that mean far different things.
Yes, those of us who do work in bargaining do in fact ignore those rates. They are not indicative of the bargaining cycle. They are useless.
You must have forgotten that DAL and JBU are A320 operators. Both have rates higher than yours (DAL far higher), and to make matters worse, DAL is just beginning Section 6, which means that your rates will fall even farther behind theirs.
No one was "duped" into anything. Those carriers were hemorrhaging cash.
Yes, I read the letter the day it was released. I'm sorry, but I won't be posting it. I don't post internal company documents to public forums. Someone might have posted it somewhere else, so if you'd like to copy and paste it, go right ahead.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
It's hard to follow your question, I think you are only replying to this quote below correct?
I don't know what to tell you except to read it again. If you told me "I worked for silver" the first thing I would think is "Ah, Silver, that's actually Gulfstream." Then I would probably at somepoint ask you, "When were you hired?" and when you said Last week I would say to myself "Ah couldn't have paid for his training". I've run into a ton of Compass CA's who were at Gulfstream and they actually say, "Gulfstream, but I didn't pay for anything." So it's not like I'm the only one. To me, because of my limited experience with Gulfstream, every time someone says Gulfstream I think PFT. In '07 my FO over here (who was furloughed and went to Skywest), told me a bunch of his classmates were in Gulfstream and I asked him, "Did they pay for their job?", to which he said "No no no, they don't do that anymore," and I said "Oh, thank God." Even now though, years and years later, it's still an auto reaction to someone saying Gulfstream or Silver, but that's due to '03 when I graduated and some of my classmates were buying their training over there.
What you said, DPA was, "if I was hired at Silver, I must havebought my job", and that's not really the logic used is it? I suppose it's more a reflexive thing, like when someone says "Eastern" I say "Lorenzo". When someone says AirTran I think Valuejet, it doesn't help one of the teachers at Riddle was a Valuejet guy (Management) that worked during the accident and was a big part of buying the AirTran name. I still say Cotied instead of United. When someone says Virgin I think Branson. When someone says taxiway Whiskey I think Wookie (CA from Colgan, giant goofball). Taxiway Alpha is ALPA. US Airways = Scareways. Taxiways Charlie is Chuckles, Foxtrot Fox, Gulf is Garoofoo (Japanese word for Golf, don't ask, phonetic spelling btw). November I actually sometimes sing Wclef Jeans song there.
Seems like I ranted a little there.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
We'll see where 2015 takes us. That is an eternity away in the airline industry. And I do remember what Spirit got. They got high raises on the top end by selling out the bottom end, especially first year pilots. They took a paycut from $44/hr to $38.50/hr first year and NO raise throughout the duration of the contract. Fact: a first year pilot at Spirit even in 2015 will make 38.50/hr and that is pathetic. Yet again ALPA seniors selling out their junior in a heartbeat.
Says who? You? I'm sure management will use what ever current rates are being paid to define their version of "industry standard," and that includes United and US Airways.
What is the industry standard then, for the regionals? Who has the industry standard in the regional world?
Thank you for admitting that. Now I know ALPA head honchos are ignoring the reality of what pilots are making today, therefore coming to the table with askewed numbers. No wonder Pinnacle took 5 years, Airtran another 5, and Spirit 3. When you come to the table ignoring what others are making, you are shooting for Pluto while everyone else is at Mars.
You obviously have a reading comprehension problem, and that is worrisome for a negotiator. Read my post above and you'll see several times I've acknowledged that Delta and Jetblue are ahead of VA, while United and US Air are below.
Yes they were duped. And despite the cash hemorrhaging, the management still secured and walked out with their millions and golden parachutes. Just ask AMR's Don Carty or United's Tilton.
I don't need to, I know what it stated.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You focus on a probationary pay rate instead of the entire scale. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I don't see you or anyone else complaining about UPS paying their probationary pilots the exact same rate. Managements have a hard time accepting higher rates for probationary pilots. It's always a bone of contention in negotiations. And the NMB doesn't have much sympathy for us, because you're essentially bargaining for people who you don't even represent yet. Management's arguments, on the other hand, get a lot of sympathy from the NMB on this issue. If you think you're going to get a release by pissing off the NMB, then you don't understand RLA bargaining. But I think that's obvious already.
Yes, management will use all sorts of crazy justifications for their insulting proposals. It's sad that a fellow pilot would make those same justifications, though. You might want to stop carrying management's water for them.
This is simply common sense. What was negotiated 10 years ago is no longer relevant when multiple contracts with much higher rates have been negotiated in just the past few years. Those rates are the new established standard, not what happened 10+ years ago.
Take a look at recently negotiated agreements, and that will show you the standard. The ASA and PCL contracts are your best examples. They indicate the most recent bargaining cycle for RJ operators.
Pinnacle took 5 years because most of it was under the old Bush NMB, which was stacked with anti-labor members. Or have you forgotten Bush's pledge that there would be "no airline strikes on my watch?" Things picked up quickly after President Obama appointed a new Board member and shifted the balance on the Board to a more pro-labor stance. AirTran and Spirit dealt with the same issues, as did ASA before them. A fair NMB is required to get things done. We have that now, we didn't have that then.
If you admit that their companies were hemorrhaging cash, then how can you say that they were "duped?" Failing to take concessions would have resulted in liquidation. Management raiding the coffers is a separate issue, but pretending that concessions weren't necessary is just delusion.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Wait what? Mesaba was released, and Mesaba negotiated our contract during the Bush years.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Talk to Captain Wychor. He can explain the unusual situation there. The short answer is that Mesaba management made some huge errors in the latter stage of bargaining that put the Bush NMB in a tough spot, and they really had no choice but to release Mesaba. They stalled as long as possible, though.
WacoFan
Bigly
I wish people would stop slinging hash at ATN about Gulfstream. If he had made an attempt to obfuscate, or somehow dance around it - I would be all in favor of a continual blanket party. But, he has been forthright about it. Seriously - there are many reasons to resent ATN's existence - and Ian J and I often debate if he is ridiculous or absurd - but to kick him in the nuts repeatedly about something he's more than open about seems like dirty pool.
Silver Airways - new ownership, new name, etc. I'm trying to buy a med-spa that has a horrible reputation. If I get it, and management correctly - am I guilty for the sins of the previous owners/management?
Now, if someone wants to go to the lav and start a thread about "Reasons to resent ATN" - then I'm in and it will most likely go 60 pages - but Gulfstream wouldn't fit on any of them.
Silver Airways - new ownership, new name, etc. I'm trying to buy a med-spa that has a horrible reputation. If I get it, and management correctly - am I guilty for the sins of the previous owners/management?
Now, if someone wants to go to the lav and start a thread about "Reasons to resent ATN" - then I'm in and it will most likely go 60 pages - but Gulfstream wouldn't fit on any of them.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
It's all BS for first year pay. I think it's pathetic what they (all of them) can get away with first year pay. And no, you don't "not represent" first year pilots. True, ALPA can't protect a first year pilot from discipline issues but still, they're an ALPA pilot on probation with the company for one year. You still have all services available in terms of medical help, insurance, etc. And no, don't insult me with a release from the NMB issue. It ain't gonna happen.
No, in this case, management is being reasonable, and YOU are being unreasonable. If I run a company and need to pay wages, I'll look at what others are getting in todays market for that same job. I don't care about their contracts or when they were signed. What I care about, as a negotiator, is what they make now.
Hahahahaaa Pinnacle and ASA. Right. Look at XJT's contract from 2004, and that was far better than what we got at 9E in 2011. Pinnacle's contract was barely industry average in MANY areas.
And btw, what's your definition of the difference between industry standard and industry average?
Stop lying about Pinnacle. Pinnacle took 5 years because the union were chest thumpers that demanded too much and kept the pilot group out in the cold about the overall picture. Pinnacle had SEVERAL offers of new contracts, including a last and final best offer in 2006. If we had accepted that, we would have had that for 5 years and been negotiating off that today. The negotiation committee turned it down and they kept us in the dark in regards to the proposals that were out there. Only after TA1 did heads finally roll and the recall mania began. Don't make excuses for extremely poor union decisions. I still remember the 99% percent stickers and the "to see a demonstration in unity, keep dragging your feet" bullsheet stickers. After 4+ years of negotiations, TA#1 was the best our negotiators threw at us. Complete BS. All of them were recalled as they should have been in the first place long ago.
And yeah, mesaba was released into a 30 day cooling by the NMB during the Bush years. But ripping on Republicans and supporting Democrats is so easy for a union hawk like yourself, even if it means throwing out a few false facts.
I don't admit to cash hemmorhaging like you claim it to be. They were duped because several carries took paycuts to help stay out of bankruptcy, and that back fired in their face when all went to BK and then forced round #2 of cuts. And no, failing to take paycuts would NOT have resulted in liquidation. The company would have declared bankruptcy, entered Chptr 11, and then dumped the union contract through filing motion 1113. Concessions, to the degree given up by your beloved ALPA carriers, were NOT necessary (read again: NOT to that degree).
Anyway, back to where this whole argument started. You were concerned about VA affecting your ability to demand a payraise for 2nd year SWA pilots making $150,000. Your previous employment record, Gulfstream academy and airline, Pinnacle, all under the old 1999 agreement, making the lowest RJ wages in the country, well after the amendable date, and then finally Airtran in 2007 when they were still under their old contract, making them one of the LOWEST paid national carrier pilots. Only by sheer luck did you hit the lottery when SWA bought your airline, and now all of a sudden you are worried about Virgin's affect on your ability to get payraises at Southwest. Nevermind your career track of working at some of the worse, bottom scum paying operators in the airline industry. Nice to hear that Virgin is now finally what breaks the camel's back. Ironic, considering where you came from. You are where you are today because you worked for the lowest paying regional airlines and a national airline. If you felt that strong about it, you shouldn't have seeked employment at Gulfstream. If you felt that strongly about it, you shouldn't have accepted a job at Pinnacle. And the same for Airtran. It's one thing to have your attitude against Virgin if you came from ExpressJet in 2004 and Southwest in 2008. Then I could understand. I'd say, yeah, this guy has held the line and came from quality high paying regional and a major airline, so his beef is understandable. But considering you came from Gulfstream, Pinnacle, and Airtran, you don't have much ground for your hatred of Virgin.