8710 question

[mastermags]

So I've been out of the 8710 game for a while. I'm filling out my 8710 for my CFI renewal on American Flyers. When I printed it out, on section IV where it asks if you have ever failed a test for this certificate or rating it automatically filled in a 'no'. Now, I failed my initial CFI checkride way back when, but since this is a renewal would I leave it as a 'no' or do I need to change it to a 'yes'?

 

[Fly_Unity]

Leave it as a "No". You did not fail your renewal.

 

[innovator152]

As a renewal leave it as "no". Sorry I don't have any documentation to back that up, I can just tell you that's the way I did it before.

 

[Houston]

Whether you check yes or no does not affect your renewal. So, the real question is, would checking no be falsification. The question in Area IV is "HAVE YOU FAILED A TEST FOR THIS CERTIFICATE OR RATING?" Turning to the instructions for guidance yields only the statement of "Check appropriate block." A search through both FAA Order 8900.1 and 8900.2 only amplify to say that if the block is checked yes, then the examiner must ensure the applicant meets any additional requirements (such as an endorsement if within 30 or 60 days). Interestingly enough, FAA Order 8900.1 even references the old FAA Form 8710-1 in its instructions, which had different wording and said "Have you failed a test for this certificate or rating within the last 30 days?" A totally different question, but which was probably (I'm just guessing) changed to cover the 60 day implications as well as the 30 day implication).

So, no matter how poorly written, no matter what the intention was, no matter how it got to say what it does, the question is have you failed a test for this certificate or rating? I don't see an extension to the question that says anything about the question not counting if it is a renewal. I certainly would not take the fact that someone before me did it and no ill befell them. We all know of events contrary to the rules that were never enforced.

There is no down side to checking yes. The fact you failed the CFI test the first time is already permanently documented in your file. You are going to get your CFI renewed no matter what. On the other hand, is there a chance checking no will be interpreted as a violation of 14 CFR 61.59(a)(1). Maybe. How much? I don't know. It depends on the situation and the people involved.

So, you have a choice between checking yes, which will carry no risk and checking no, which carries some degree of risk. I know which choice I would make.

 

[Fly_Unity]

Whether you check yes or no does not affect your renewal. So, the real question is, would checking no be falsification. The question in Area IV is "HAVE YOU FAILED A TEST FOR THIS CERTIFICATE OR RATING?" Turning to the instructions for guidance yields only the statement of "Check appropriate block." A search through both FAA Order 8900.1 and 8900.2 only amplify to say that if the block is checked yes, then the examiner must ensure the applicant meets any additional requirements (such as an endorsement if within 30 or 60 days). Interestingly enough, FAA Order 8900.1 even references the old FAA Form 8710-1 in its instructions, which had different wording and said "Have you failed a test for this certificate or rating within the last 30 days?" A totally different question, but which was probably (I'm just guessing) changed to cover the 60 day implications as well as the 30 day implication).

So, no matter how poorly written, no matter what the intention was, no matter how it got to say what it does, the question is have you failed a test for this certificate or rating? I don't see an extension to the question that says anything about the question not counting if it is a renewal. I certainly would not take the fact that someone before me did it and no ill befell them. We all know of events contrary to the rules that were never enforced.

There is no down side to checking yes. The fact you failed the CFI test the first time is already permanently documented in your file. You are going to get your CFI renewed no matter what. On the other hand, is there a chance checking no will be interpreted as a violation of 14 CFR 61.59(a)(1). Maybe. How much? I don't know. It depends on the situation and the people involved.

So, you have a choice between checking yes, which will carry no risk and checking no, which carries some degree of risk. I know which choice I would make.

I disagree, what if he did not fail the intial ride, but an addon like MEI or CFII? Or what if his CFII was his intial? Would your answer remain the same?

Technically the answer should probably remain blank, because there is no "not applicable" option.The application is not for a certificate or rating (when you fill in the application, its for what your applying for, (in this case a renewal), not what you got).

 

[Houston]

I disagree, what if he did not fail the intial ride, but an addon like MEI or CFII? Or what if his CFII was his intial? Would your answer remain the same?

Technically the answer should probably remain blank, because there is no "not applicable" option.The application is not for a certificate or rating (when you fill in the application, its for what your applying for, (in this case a renewal), not what you got).

You're welcome to disagree, except from reading what you wrote, it's unclear with what you are disagreeing. You pose different situations than the one to which I responded. So, let me respond to your new questions.

The words on the application are "HAVE YOU FAILED A TEST FOR THIS CERTIFICATE OR RATING?" So, to answer it you first have to understand what is a "certificate" and what is a "rating". Certificates are what is listed in area II of the plastic card (private, ATP, mechanic, flight instructor, flight engineer, etc.). Ratings are what is listed in area XII on the back of the plastic card (airplane multiengine, instrument airplane, glider, turbojet, airframe, etc.). Armed with that knowledge you then have to ask the question, what is being applied for, a certificate or a rating. In the case of a CFI renewal, the application is for a certificate. Then the next question to answer in the case of a CFI renewal application, has the applicant failed a test for that certificate. In the OP's question, he clearly had failed a test for that certificate. In the first of your new questions, the application is for a certificate and the failure was during the addition of a rating, so the answer is that "probably" the correct answer is no. In the second of your new questions, the application is still for a certificate and the failure was when the certificate was originally applied for, regardless of the category, class, or ratings at the time, so the answer is "probably" yes.

If you read the third paragraph of my reply with care you'll find the crux of my recommendation. That, as well as the rest of my response, remains unchanged.

As far as your recommendation to leave the question unanswered, I can assure you that will not result the receipt of a permanent (plastic) certificate. If it were a paper application, it might get past an examiner who would issue a temporary (paper) certificate, but it would be kicked back by the Airman Registry Branch in Oklahoma City.

 

[Fly_Unity]

I sure was not recommending to leave it blank. And I know what ratings and categories are. The point your missing is this is for a renewal, not for a past checkride you done. The question is asking if you have failed the CFI renewal portion, which everyone graduates (that I know of). When I get my add-on to my private rating, I dont put that I have failed my initial private rating. I only put "yes" if I failed what Im applying for (In this case a renewal).

On another note, If you check yes then you need to supply the FAA with your failed slip. If you do not have that slip, check no. If you check yes and don't have the slip the FAA may not renew your CFI license. (I know from a past experience being a Chief Flight Instructor with a certion FSDO). Since you already turned in your pink slip years ago, most likely you wont have this.

 

[Houston]

I sure was not recommending to leave it blank.

That isn't what your earlier writing indicates.

And I know what ratings and categories are.

That isn't what your current writing indicates.

The point your missing is this is for a renewal, not for a past checkride you done.

The word is "you're" not "your" and not only am I not missing it, I wrote that a couple times.

The question is asking if you have failed the CFI renewal portion, which everyone graduates (that I know of).

If you can find ANY information from the FAA supporting your statement, please present it.

The meaning of "CFI renewal portion" is unclear.

When I get my add-on to my private rating, I dont put that I have failed my initial private rating.

Private pilot is a certificate, not a rating. See point number two above. When an application is made for a rating to be added to an existing certificate, that is an application for a rating, not a certificate.

I only put "yes" if I failed what Im applying for (In this case a renewal).

Partially correct. The applicant indicates yes if they have failed a test for the certificate or rating (which is what the question asks). The word renewal is not in the question and is not addressed in any guidance that I can find. If you can find ANY information from the FAA supporting your statement, please present it.

On another note, If you check yes then you need to supply the FAA with your failed slip.

Partially correct. Read 14 CFR 61.43(f)(2).

If you do not have that slip, check no.

The meaning of that statement is unclear.

If you check yes and don't have the slip the FAA may not renew your CFI license. (I know from a past experience being a Chief Flight Instructor with a certion FSDO). Since you already turned in your pink slip years ago, most likely you wont have this.

There isn't anything in any FAA guidance I can find that supports that statement. Although I see errors by people on a regular basis, I cannot imagine any FAA inspector not renewing a flight instructor certificate based upon the applicant's inability to produce a copy of a previously disapproved test of any kind. If you can find ANY information from the FAA supporting your statement, please present it.

Also, flight instructor is a certificate, not a license. See point number two above.

 

[Fly_Unity]

"HAVE YOU FAILED A TEST FOR THIS CERTIFICATE OR RATING", The word "this" is talking about what your CURRENTLY applying for.

I guess we just disagree on this. At least the applicants who read this see the arguments on both sides. I sent an email to Gliem, ASA, American Flyers, asking this question. All three stated that you always put in "no" in that box. One stated that the only time you put a "yes" in the box, is if you did a renewal checkride with the FSDO or DPE and failed that checkride, then you put in the box that you failed a test for THIS certificate. I also sent an email to iacra in search for documentation that you requested, they referred me to our FSDO, who stated that they did not have documentation, but thought it was just common sense that you put "no" in the box unless you failed the renewal (which they stated does happen).

So I could not provide documentation like you asked, however it seems like everyone agrees with me, therefore you should be the one that has to provide me with documentation proving your point vs just YOUR interpretation.

By the way Im just debating this as its my way of learning new things. Im not trying to be contrary.

 

[Houston]

"HAVE YOU FAILED A TEST FOR THIS CERTIFICATE OR RATING", The word "this" is talking about what your CURRENTLY applying for.

That is correct. What certificate do you think you're applying for when you make an application for the renewal of a flight instructor certificate?

I sent an email to Gliem, ASA, American Flyers, asking this question. All three stated that you always put in "no" in that box.

Did any of the three give you any reference?

One stated that the only time you put a "yes" in the box, is if you did a renewal checkride with the FSDO or DPE and failed that checkride, then you put in the box that you failed a test for THIS certificate.

But they didn't give you anything but an opinion did they?

I also sent an email to iacra in search for documentation that you requested, they referred me to our FSDO, who stated that they did not have documentation,

I agree with whoever you talked with at your FSDO that they don't have any documentation on the subject.

but thought it was just common sense that you put "no" in the box unless you failed the renewal (which they stated does happen).

The only way a renewal can be failed is if the applicant takes the practical test option. For all of the other options including the FIRC, a person is either qualified or unqualified. I.E. they either completed the FIRC or they didn't.

So I could not provide documentation like you asked, however it seems like everyone agrees with me, therefore you should be the one that has to provide me with documentation proving your point vs just YOUR interpretation.

If you'll read what I wrote, you'll find that my documentation is included in there.

By the way Im just debating this as its my way of learning new things. Im not trying to be contrary.

Excellent. I'll be sending you a private message with a suggestion for resolving this question and getting documentation into the system that establishes a precedent.

 

[Mike H]

I'd just as soon let somebody else establish precedents with the FAA- somebody with a completely different name from mine