Your the Jumpseater

av8or91

av8or91

Well-Known Member
Yesterday, while jump seating out of Houston,(I had a seat in the back) I went up to introduce myself to the crew and while waiting in the doorway to the cockpit I was listening to the F/O brief the departure out of Houston. He was saying that there was no push clearance required (there is), he was also saying that they would taxi to a spot and then contact ground which would mean they would mean they would taxi across a controlled ramp without talking to anyone. So, my question is, what would you do? Say something or just let them figure it out?
 
There's a reason I don't believe in briefing taxi plans.

I've seen too many people think they're going to get "A" and then up being cleared to "B" and screwing up complying with the instructions.

Be a resource in this situation.
 
av8or91 said:
Yesterday, while jump seating out of Houston,(I had a seat in the back) I went up to introduce myself to the crew and while waiting in the doorway to the cockpit I was listening to the F/O brief the departure out of Houston. He was saying that there was no push clearance required (there is), he was also saying that they would taxi to a spot and then contact ground which would mean they would mean they would taxi across a controlled ramp without talking to anyone. So, my question is, what would you do? Say something or just let them figure it out?
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Company plane? They doing IOE or something?
 
Doug Taylor said:
There's a reason I don't believe in briefing taxi plans.

I've seen too many people think they're going to get "A" and then up being cleared to "B" and screwing up complying with the instructions.

Be a resource in this situation.
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Seriously.

(Yes, I know what the FOM says. The problem with briefing "expected" is that you will hear what you want to hear, and read back what you wanted to hear, and so on. Where I used to work, we got rid of our expected taxi route briefing because of this.)

av8or91 said:
Yesterday, while jump seating out of Houston,(I had a seat in the back) I went up to introduce myself to the crew and while waiting in the doorway to the cockpit I was listening to the F/O brief the departure out of Houston. He was saying that there was no push clearance required (there is), he was also saying that they would taxi to a spot and then contact ground which would mean they would mean they would taxi across a controlled ramp without talking to anyone. So, my question is, what would you do? Say something or just let them figure it out?
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Eh. As a jumpseater I will only pipe up if I think we're in imminent pilot-deviation or hitting stuff territory. I did pipe up once while on the seat, coming into LAX when SoCal couldn't really articulate what they wanted (shortcutting the arrival can actually get confusing, especially if they're less than clear on it—adding "when able" to the three or four simultaneously issued instructions didn't help).

In your specific case, all of what you have mentioned sounded like "stupid new guy" mistakes, which, having recently been being a stupid new guy myself, gets caught and corrected during the "any questions" phase of the yakkety that happens between Before Start and the closing and locking of the flightdeck compartment door.
 
Especially in JFK. Flying with two guys that weren't all that familiar with the way things roll here briefed the most logical route to the runway.

But logic and taxi plans are mutually exclusive issues.

So they got their instruction, the FO read it back correctly, the captain was already lock-brained on what he briefed, the other FO (in the pilot seat) didn't clarify what ground control actually said and the captain turns the wrong direction.

Wicked Smaht, deez guys.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Especially in JFK. Flying with two guys that weren't all that familiar with the way things roll here briefed the most logical route to the runway.

But logic and taxi plans are mutually exclusive issues.

So they got their instruction, the FO read it back correctly, the captain was already lock-brained on what he briefed, the other FO (in the pilot seat) didn't clarify what ground control actually said and the captain turns the wrong direction.

Wicked Smaht, deez guys.
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"Widget eighty seven thirty eight, tell you what, just stop right there."
 
Autothrust Blue said:
"Widget eighty seven thirty eight, tell you what, just stop right there."
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Just about how it went!

I don't know, if a crew is going to discount a guy sitting in the middle aft seat, full view of the operation, years of experience operating out of the airport, well, what can you do...
 
jtrain609 said:
Company plane? They doing IOE or something?
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Negative, this was another carrier.

I know this is not a life and death scenario but just wanted to see what others would have done. I did say something and I did mention to the crew that I had "over heard" the brief. I politely told them that I believe there is a ramp controller here, here is how we do it,and they might want to check. I felt bad for speaking up because at first they looked at me like I was a nobody and didn't know anything and then on the way out the captain thanked me because both he and the F/O had overlooked the correct way to enter and exit the ramp. Just looking out for others and I hope someone would do the same for me.
 
Just after i got onto the line I was going into DFW. The captain hadn't been there in a long time and I hadn't been either. We had the Jumpseater guide us so we didnt do anything stupid.
 
Doug Taylor said:
Just about how it went!

I don't know, if a crew is going to discount a guy sitting in the middle aft seat, full view of the operation, years of experience operating out of the airport, well, what can you do...
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Sorta my life as an FE. ;)

My favorite two moments were when pilots have been known to "respond" to me with interesting comments. One overheard telling another pilot, "Don't listen to the FEs, they don't know what they're talking about..." Mind you both of us clueless FEs were qualified examiners in our squadron.

And the best was when the pilot taxing the aircraft was going to taxi into a construction area that the Aircraft Commander and I had already briefed him on... When he was told to "Come left" by both myself and the AC, instead of doing so, he turned around to look at me, while still taxiing, and took the time to retort with an "I GOT THIS!" Closest I've ever come to slapping an officer up side the head. Lucky for him, my commanding officer was sitting on the flight deck at the time. :p
 
If he's an Express carrier he's probably doing IOE. If not, it's probably Air Canada pushing back w/o clearance again?
 
Doug Taylor said:
Especially in JFK. Flying with two guys that weren't all that familiar with the way things roll here briefed the most logical route to the runway.
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Speaking of guys not familiar with JFK, a FO I know had a new upgrade ask for the ILS 13 because he didn't want to do the VOR.
 
juxtapilot said:
If he's an Express carrier he's probably doing IOE. If not, it's probably Air Canada pushing back w/o clearance again?
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Not as bad as when Aeroflot flew the IL-62's into SEA. Apparently they had a few times where they pushed, taxied to the runway and then called up for their clearance...I would have loved to have been there for that.
 
Bud01 said:
Just after i got onto the line I was going into DFW. The captain hadn't been there in a long time and I hadn't been either. We had the Jumpseater guide us so we didnt do anything stupid.
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My first few times at ORD have been manageable, but I still am extra cautious at that nightmare.


Sent from Seat 3D
 
Being a dispatcher, chances are good that even if I KNEW that the crew was wrong about something, I wouldnt be taken seriously if I spoke up (unless, of course, it was something REALLY blatant like...say... "Oh boys, theres a 767 getting ready to roll us like a tortilla..." so it runs into a grey area. I think for briefings on the ground, I would probably keep my mouth shut, but if it a safety of flight issue or major legality issue(say, they dont have an alternate but I looked at the destination wx and its 3585) I would bring it to the attention of the captain as discreetly and respectfully as possible.
 
Derg said:
There's a reason I don't believe in briefing taxi plans.

I've seen too many people think they're going to get "A" and then up being cleared to "B" and screwing up complying with the instructions.
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Word. Flying charter in to ORD or JFK is eye-opening in this regard. You and the F/O are all asses and elbows trying to figure out WTF, because you have no expectations, and in most cases, you don't screw up because you're so poop-scared of screwing up. Meanwhile airliners are scooting along on the routes they get 99 times out of a hundred and getting screamed at. This isn't a slag on airline crews...I've been guilty of the same sort of stupidity at TEB...you sort of assume you're going to do what you always do. Point is (if I have one), pay attention, bustah!
 
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