Departure heading on takeoff

SurferLucas

SurferLucas

Southern Gentleman
Basic question here, can a controller issue a departure heading with a "line up and wait" clearance...such as "XYZ 234, line up and wait runway 24L...on departure fly heading 270 at the shoreline"?

Or does the controller have to wait for the "take off" clearance to issue a heading on departure: "XYZ 234, cleared for takeoff runway 24L...fly heading 270 at the shoreline"?
 
Not a controller, but I'd hope they don't do that. We sometimes hear things we're expecting to hear, and with a clearance like that, I can see a pilot thinking he got a takeoff clearance.

Perhaps a better clearance would be "line up and wait runway 27, expect a turn at the shore"
 
After talking with the ATL Tower manager, she said "We will give an 'expect' turn to a certain heading with a line up and wait clearance, if there is weather/ect off the departure end of the runway", but that they cannot give a departure heading unless it coincides with a take off clearance...so I mainly curious if the controllers on here have that same opinion or not.
 
I don't work tower, but it sure sounds like a bad way of doing business to me. Having said that I asked a friend that works a fairly busy tower who says they do it all the time.
 
For that specific instance it doesn't seem well advised, but I don't see how it could be against the rules. One airport I worked at issued the departure heading in the IFR clearance from Clearance Delivery. It doesn't have to coincide with a takeoff clearance.

Use of the word "departure" when conversing with a pilot who has lined up on the runway should prevent misunderstanding that a take off clearance has been issued, but it's just removing one more layer of redundancy. Issuing it with the takeoff clearance would be better, I think.
 
They do this at SFO all the time. They give a line up and wait. Bthen they say. "Hold position, on departure fly heading 010" or something extremely similar.
 
Maurus said:
They do this at SFO all the time. They give a line up and wait. Bthen they say. "Hold position, on departure fly heading 010" or something extremely similar.
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I've been given similar instructions while holding short, too. "Air Carrier 4***, fly heading one two zero, hold short runway two five." Sort of sucks, because you expect to be given line up and wait.
 
I've had departure headings on hold short and "position and hold" all the time, as recently as two days ago. Always seemed normal to me.
 
Most places I go give the heading at takeoff clearance.
Once place I can think of, SYR, normally gives "after departure fly runway heading, expect radar vectors as filed" in the clearance.
If a controller said, line up and wait 24L, after departure fly heading XXX, under normal circumstances I would not confuse this with a takeoff clearance. I can see after being awake 14 + hours and flying 5+ legs, yeah maybe it could...
 
The key words "hold" or "wait" when you are at the line should kind of clue you in that it is not a takeoff clearance... And you are supposed to read them back either way
 
The other day while departing CLT, tower gave us a line up and wait. Since it was an RNAV departure, I asked if he could verify that the first waypoint was GIRGY. He told me that he couldn't give me that yet, but that it would come with the takeoff clearance.
 
adk said:
The other day while departing CLT, tower gave us a line up and wait. Since it was an RNAV departure, I asked if he could verify that the first waypoint was GIRGY. He told me that he couldn't give me that yet, but that it would come with the takeoff clearance.
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Standard phraseology (apparently not used in LAX, by the way) is "SouthernJets 1158 heavy, RNAV to GEETK, runway ____, cleared for takeoff." Although I've never been given "RNAV to DOCKR, runway 25R, cleared for takeoff" in LAX. DFW, yes. ATL, yes.
 
Autothrust Blue said:
Standard phraseology (apparently not used in LAX, by the way) is "SouthernJets 1158 heavy, RNAV to GEETK, runway ____, cleared for takeoff." Although I've never been given "RNAV to DOCKR, runway 25R, cleared for takeoff" in LAX. DFW, yes. ATL, yes.
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I *think* that may have something to do with DFW and ATL using ROTG. I'm not sure if LAX has it, so that *may* be the difference in phraseology.
 
I love the way Cincinasty does clearances. Everything is right there in your PDC. Runway assignment, departure, etc. I really hate the ORD game of "well...its probably this runway, but it could also be one of these 3.."
 
Screaming_Emu said:
I love the way Cincinasty does clearances. Everything is right there in your PDC. Runway assignment, departure, etc. I really hate the ORD game of "well...its probably this runway, but it could also be one of these 3.."
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Or LAX. Set up for the runway closest to you, but keep in mind that you'll probably be sent over the river and through the woods. :(

(I try not to sound disappointed whenever I get the 24s.)
 
syntrikz said:
Most places I go give the heading at takeoff clearance.
Once place I can think of, SYR, normally gives "after departure fly runway heading, expect radar vectors as filed" in the clearance.
If a controller said, line up and wait 24L, after departure fly heading XXX, under normal circumstances I would not confuse this with a takeoff clearance. I can see after being awake 14 + hours and flying 5+ legs, yeah maybe it could...
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Damn you for stealing my profile picture. I've had this since 2008!
 
As a tower controller I don't think it's 'bad practice' to give an airborne instruction on the ground. Obviously you must stress the 'wait' or 'hold in position' part. For me I'd rather sort out the details on the ground then giving a 'suprise' control instruction while the aircraft is in the air and playing 20 questions.
 
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