Colgan Fined for Crew Rest Violations

DesertDriver said:
I'm about to be that new FO, is there anywhere besides the FAR's that give a good explanation of all the rules for part 121 and 135 that is not in legalese?
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I was already mentioned, the ALPA guidelines are pretty well done. There's also a chart in the FOM. The information is out there, but the problem is a lot of people just rely on scheduling to tell them if they are legal or not. Scheduling's job is to put pilots on flights. If CrewTrac tells them it's legal, they'll tell you it's legal.
 
v1valarob said:
I think we are forgetting that it's not a calendar day off in 7, it's 24 in 7. Old school Colgan with no contract or union protection would frequently give someone 24 hours off in a 7 day period, and sometimes not even in domicile.

Fly back to the hub in the morning, finish at 730am, go to rest, next day you're good at 731am and you've had your 24 hours off that are required.

Thankfully we no longer have to live like that and our contract requires a calendar day off in 7 days.
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back in 08 or 09 I think, our friendly aviation advisors decided that it was 24 hours midnight to midnight, and legal to start/finish didn't actually apply. Loi's went out to crews that were suddenly in violation, and overnight 9l had the best duty regs in the industry. If you got close to 7 hours flying the rest of your day got pulled... After 12 hours duty, sent home etc. Shame it lasted only a few days.

maybe this is some friction with the faa?
 
I just watched Frontline's "Flying Cheap" for the first time, scary, and now Colgan is again being fined. I flew for a small regional for a short time and I am glad I saw this documentary after I left.
 
dingo222 said:
Fwiw, those fines are for violations in 08-09. Govt efficiency at it's best
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Yeah, that's when they suddenly changed the rest rules interpretations on us...

Rumor has it, our management is standing up to the FAA now... so there may be a bit of a pissing contest going on.. ( standing up for us / the pilots and making the FAA go through official channels to get info.. not just having their own access - so a good thing for us)

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
 
In related news, CJC has allegedly found a way to negotiate their way out of free breakfast at crew layover hotels. I'm not sure how much they're saving on that, but golly. Really?

I mean, seriously. It's already free, along with that copy of USA Today, etc. It's not like it cost that much.
 
jynxyjoe said:
LOL, exactly. Colgan's was just the victim of government inefficiencies, that's all.

Move along, nothing to see here
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I'd really like to see an effective regulator for commercial aviation safety, believe me. The process that we have does a pretty good job of looking out for the interests of the various parties, but it's ridiculously slow.

I do seem to remember FAA oversight being named as one of the problems in the "landmark" Colgan Air Flight 3407 accident. The FAA (and most other American regulators) need more inspectors. A LOT more inspectors.

The only thing that will get more efficient about our government in the current climate, though, is how it reads your e-mail.
 
My employer negotiated the papers and the free breakfast in many hotels away.

Ridiculous cheapness is everywhere.

I like, also, how hotels won't give you rewards points, but if they fly on your airline, they fully expect mileage.
 
Firebird2XC said:
In related news, CJC has allegedly found a way to negotiate their way out of free breakfast at crew layover hotels. I'm not sure how much they're saving on that, but golly. Really?

I mean, seriously. It's already free, along with that copy of USA Today, etc. It's not like it cost that much.
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I know everyone likes to dog pile on CJC....and I'm no different when it's deserved. However, in all fairness, this has ZERO to do w/ CJC. This is a PCL Corp thing.....I know exactly where you learned the news you're referring to and this person is leaving the CJC side to go to the PCL side of the operation.
 
Cruise said:
I know everyone likes to dog pile on CJC....and I'm no different when it's deserved. However, in all fairness, this has ZERO to do w/ CJC. This is a PCL Corp thing.....I know exactly where you learned the news you're referring to and this person is leaving the CJC side to go to the PCL side of the operation.
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Hmm. FWIW, my time with CJC was just after the PCL acquisition, so I'm not really sure I know a difference. I'm not really sure it matters if there is one or not.

Personally, I know everybody likes to defend the team they're playing for, but can we just call a spade a spade? People like to throw out the "CJC is a mom and pop outfit and they gave me a chance!" card... Really. It's an airline. AIRLINE. We're talking millions of dollars in assets and equipment and thousands of people. There's nothing 'mom and pop' about it, and when the corporate bean counters start literally taking food out of the mouths of flight crews... geebus.. when's the line gonna get drawn?
 
Firebird2XC said:
Hmm. FWIW, my time with CJC was just after the PCL acquisition, so I'm not really sure I know a difference. I'm not really sure it matters if there is one or not.

Personally, I know everybody likes to defend the team they're playing for, but can we just call a spade a spade? People like to throw out the "CJC is a mom and pop outfit and they gave me a chance!" card... Really. It's an airline. AIRLINE. We're talking millions of dollars in assets and equipment and thousands of people. There's nothing 'mom and pop' about it, and when the corporate bean counters start literally taking food out of the mouths of flight crews... geebus.. when's the line gonna get drawn?
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Some people were just raised not to speak ill of the people you work for, even if by every metric they are your enemy. The social graces are not compelling enough to change my mind, nor many others, but you're always going to hear it from a few.
 
Firebird2XC said:
Hmm. FWIW, my time with CJC was just after the PCL acquisition, so I'm not really sure I know a difference. I'm not really sure it matters if there is one or not.

Personally, I know everybody likes to defend the team they're playing for, but can we just call a spade a spade? People like to throw out the "CJC is a mom and pop outfit and they gave me a chance!" card... Really. It's an airline. AIRLINE. We're talking millions of dollars in assets and equipment and thousands of people. There's nothing 'mom and pop' about it, and when the corporate bean counters start literally taking food out of the mouths of flight crews... geebus.. when's the line gonna get drawn?
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I don't disagree w/ the premise of your statement. However, in this instance, this wasn't a CJC problem. I could give a rat's ass about CJC. I've spent more than my fair share of time working to change CJC in the past. I'm done with that now and the reigns are someone else's problem. BUT, you aren't being fair here either.....at no point did I "defend" anything CJC, let alone what happened. I merely pointed out your ire was misdirected....this time. No worries though, I'm sure CJC (hopefully that name will be gone in short order) will do something stupid in the near future to deserve our disgust, yet again.

It's reprehensible that PCL Corp negotiated away "free" breakfast. That's a total scumbag move....but sadly, doesn't surprise me to hear this is happening.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Some people were just raised not to speak ill of the people you work for, even if by every metric they are your enemy. The social graces are not compelling enough to change my mind, nor many others, but you're always going to hear it from a few.
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I was raised by a card-carrying ALPA Captain / former Marine Corps officer who said he wanted to pour out a bottle of whiskey on LBJ's grave. But he was going to drink it first.

I guess that's just the difference between me and people that'll never speak up against their employer. Ya know, there's a word for people who aren't allowed to speak up against their employer.

It's 'Communist'.
 
jynxyjoe said:
Some people were just raised not to speak ill of the people you work for, even if by every metric they are your enemy. The social graces are not compelling enough to change my mind, nor many others, but you're always going to hear it from a few.
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They're called apologetics.
 
Cruise said:
It's reprehensible that PCL Corp negotiated away "free" breakfast. That's a total scumbag move....but sadly, doesn't surprise me to hear this is happening.
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Doesn't surprise me, either. We already stay in a few hotels where other crews get free internet, but we have to pay. A lot of hotels will negotiate a lower price if you waive some amenities. I bet that's what happened here. In all honesty, it doesn't affect me more than a day a week. Most of our van times are before breakfast is out anyway. Still a BS move on the company's part to save what is likely $2-3 a room. That's what they did in our LEX hotel. Used to, you'd get to your room in LEX, and there would be an awesome plate dinner and breakfast in your fridge. We're talking roast beef and potatoes. Then it stopped. Turns out the company saved $3/room by nixing the dinners. IMHO the $3200 they would have spent in the year would have gone a LOOONG way in goodwill from the crews. Instead, they sent the message of "You're not worth the extra $3" to everyone.
 
If you have your breakfast taken away, simply take a delay back in base for you and your crew to eat. It is as simple as that.

I am always amazed how pilots will focus energy on complaining about what they dont have instead of doing what is necessary to "fix the glitch."

"Hello dispatch, I am going to be taking a 30 minute delay once we get back to the hub so the crew can eat. Yeah, we used to get breakfast but the company took it away to save a few dollars so now the crew needs some nurishment before we can fly, you know 'safety of flight' stuff"
 
The Juice said:
If you have your breakfast taken away, simply take a delay back in base for you and your crew to eat. It is as simple as that.

I am always amazed how pilots will focus energy on complaining about what they dont have instead of doing what is necessary to "fix the glitch."

"Hello dispatch, I am going to be taking a 30 minute delay once we get back to the hub so the crew can eat. Yeah, we used to get breakfast but the company took it away to save a few dollars so now the crew needs some nurishment before we can fly, you know 'safety of flight' stuff"
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Roger that! I never hesitated to ensure the crews physiological needs were met, regardless of schedule. And certainly worked to fix many "glitches." :D Want to schedule us unrealistically? Fine...but don't be surprised when it doesn't work out in your favor.
 
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