What's the point of King Air (High Peformance) training...

jhugz said:
Ha! Unless its CAVU and winds calm they're not flying.
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Wow you have no idea what you're talking about. The MOD's will bend over backwards when the weather is marginal/bad to get the King Airs out. Bravo and Charlie ramps plowed asunder by the last snowstorm? No problem, just clear off Alpha so the King Air can get their launch done. Wind over 30 Knots? No worries, we'll fly through it, much easier with the line guys not flying anyhoo. Also, the profile speed on final before the FAF is 130, so if they were at 100, that's not normal. But to say that the KA's don't go unless its CAVU Calm, is just plain wrong.

P.S. The Icing profile is 140.
 
gotWXdagain said:
Wow you have no idea what you're talking about. The MOD's will bend over backwards when the weather is marginal/bad to get the King Airs out. Bravo and Charlie ramps plowed asunder by the last snowstorm? No problem, just clear off Alpha so the King Air can get their launch done...
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And so they can report nil braking action and shut down the whole airport.
 
Didn't happen the same day boss. I also landed before that aircraft in crappier conditions but managed not to screw up my taxi instructions and taxi onto a airport surface that wasn't worked on at all.
 
jhugz said:
130 knots outside the final approach fix, jesus that is high performance.
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130 seems fast for most profiles I have seen. Hell if we are light I can be 120-125 over the FAF in the jet to be on profile. Are we talking 2-3 miles out side the FAF?

I still don't get the "fly it like a skyhawk"
 
jhugz said:
Didn't happen the same day boss. I also landed before that aircraft in crappier conditions but managed not to screw up my taxi instructions and taxi onto a airport surface that wasn't worked on at all.
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Well I spent an hr trying to find a video clip, and I can't find it. So:

John Oliver:

"Now, if you're wondering how much balls it takes to say a sentence like that... it takes three balls, you actually need an extra ball."

I'm not sure when we all decided that we are God's gift to the Earth being pilots, but we're at a job with coworkers when we come to an airport. Every place is different and we all have operations that are different from ours. Look at the rants that went on during the ISN thread for UND. Has the King Air screwed up your day, yes. Could it be better, sure. Did you get paid the same? Did you get overtime when the King Air screwed you up? It's aviation, it's a small community and we can work together.

Saying though that you are more of a bad boy than other pilots or organizations does not make you better simply by saying it. Give us a solution. How would you like them to shoot the approach. What speed works best for you? Is there a different clearance that you would like? Would you like to get in ahead of them?

I like you JHugz, I really do, but you're one of the good ones. Be better than the rest and work the problem, don't just complain.
 
I'm a big believer that it is better and safer to be on speed too early rather than too late. Especially for people that are just learning the airplane.

In a related note, I was just reading the "pilot pushing" thread; does anybody else see an example here of the insidious way that pilots can pressure other pilots? Sure it can be perfectly safe for an experienced pilot to carry 250 knots to the marker, but is it smart to talk about that ability in a way that places that same expectation on the less experienced?
 
Screaming_Emu said:
There is a reason they are training in a king air. It's because they have not yet learned how to fly a king air. Hence why they are not yet up to your "I need to talk trash about people who are still in training so I can feel better about myself" standards.
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Don't be silly, Jhugz will never feel better about himself.

Roger Roger said:
Jhugz do you ever wake up in the morning and decide not to put on the Captain Badass cape?
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If he puts on the Captain Badass hat he can take the gun out of his mouth every morning.

Someday the hat won't be enough.
 
Whoa, guys guys, that turned ugly fast. He has a right to inquire about how other people operate and to try to find a solution to improve his own ops. How it came out was ill written, but there is no reason to take him down that far. Let's everyone take a step back, laugh it off, and untwist your panties jynxyjoe mikecweb Roger Roger .

We've all said things that were too heated and we all know jhugz, he's a good pilot and helps out a lot around here.

As Eddie Izzard so nearly said: "Look, you're a pilot, so tone it down a bit."
 
ProudPilot said:
Whoa, guys guys, that turned ugly fast. He has a right to inquire about how other people operate and to try to find a solution to improve his own ops. How it came out was ill written, but there is no reason to take him down that far. Let's everyone take a step back, laugh it off, and untwist your panties jynxyjoe mikecweb Roger Roger .

We've all said things that were too heated and we all know jhugz, he's a good pilot and helps out a lot around here.

As Eddie Izzard so nearly said: "Look, you're a pilot, so tone it down a bit."
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As much as I appreciate the Eddie Izzard reference, nah.

Only reason jhugz continues to put this sort of stuff up is to self aggrandize. No one this cynical and bizarre is a happy, healthy, normal person. Maybe after some self evaluation he'll decide to get someone to talk to about his problems, coddling him won't help.
 
SteveC said:
In a related note, I was just reading the "pilot pushing" thread; does anybody else see an example here of the insidious way that pilots can pressure other pilots? Sure it can be perfectly safe for an experienced pilot to carry 250 knots to the marker, but is it smart to talk about that ability in a way that places that same expectation on the less experienced?
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I had an interesting experience when I upgraded a few years ago. I had formed a mental construct where I would end up being more cautious than more senior captains. They had experience in making decisions (about weather, MX, passenger issues etc) that I didn't. I had tried to be a sponge in the right seat for the last three years, but I understood that there was no way I'd have seen enough and the safest thing to do was to always do the conservative thing.

What ended up happening was the exact opposite. I'd get into a situation where I'd be unsure as to the decision I should make (whether or not to continue an approach into the face a thunderstorm, take a plane with a questionable MEL) and 9 times out of 10 I'd continue on with the operations because in my mind I was thinking that the only reason I was questioning it at all was that I was new and obviously a senior and more experienced guy wouldn't think twice about something like this and would just do it.

Of course, the reality is that very few captains are going to shoot an approach with a thunderstorm like that, and most captains would tell MX to pound sand when asked to fly a plane in that condition, but because I'd set myself up to be super cautious because of my low time in a PIC role (and just to clarify I had 1000+ dual given before I ever got into the airline rat race) I was certain I was being overly cautious and everybody else would do it without a problem, so I should too. It took me about a month to realize what I was doing and completely reevaluate my frame of reference.

Looking back at that period in time, I can't believe some of the risks I deemed acceptable. I can take pride in the fact that my judgment was sound enough and my training (both from hour 0 and from my upgrade class) was good enough that I never got us into serious trouble, but it really does highlight some of the issues related to establishing a preconceived notion about how you will operate in a certain situation just because you think "everybody else" does it that way.

That attached picture is of an ACARS message that dispatch sent us when I asked how the weather was holding up. We were about 150 miles from KDAY doing 300 knots GS (nasty headwind) and outside of onboard radar range of the weather. The storm was 30 miles from DAY and doing about 60 knots across the ground. Any fool can see that the math was not going to work, but planning a divert never crossed my mind because I figured a wiser, more experienced captain would just do what Dispatch said, and fly fast and land.

We tried doing that, and it took getting about 5 miles from the airport, hitting moderate turbulence, and being struck by lightning to make me realize it was a really bad idea and to turn around and go to Columbus. In the end what made me turn around was the realization that if we continued much farther and had to go around, all of our exits would be blocked by the storm and we would have painted ourselves into a corner where the only option was to land.

It was a learning experience for me (and hopefully the FO when he upgrades and is faces with a similar decision) and was the start of turning the corner in my logic.

So, to answer Steve's question, I certainly think it is possible that more experienced pilots put pressure on newer guys, it is really on the new guys to understand their limits and not feel bad about flying the plane in a manner that makes them feel safe and competent. Sure, if Huggzie spouting off some tripe about a king air going too slowly in front of him probably in bad form and doesn't help anything? Yep, and it would be better if he maybe didn't, but at the end of the day it's up to the guy in the King Air to understand that THEY are the PIC in that airplane and need to do what they feel is the right thing, even if they think the more experienced pilots (or forum keyboard ninjas) are going to give them grief for it.
 

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BobDDuck said:
I had an interesting experience when I upgraded a few years ago. I had formed a mental construct where I would end up being more cautious than more senior captains. They had experience in making decisions (about weather, MX, passenger issues etc) that I didn't. I had tried to be a sponge in the right seat for the last three years, but I understood that there was no way I'd have seen enough and the safest thing to do was to always do the conservative thing.

What ended up happening was the exact opposite. I'd get into a situation where I'd be unsure as to the decision I should make (whether or not to continue an approach into the face a thunderstorm, take a plane with a questionable MEL) and 9 times out of 10 I'd continue on with the operations because in my mind I was thinking that the only reason I was questioning it at all was that I was new and obviously a senior and more experienced guy wouldn't think twice about something like this and would just do it.

Of course, the reality is that very few captains are going to shoot an approach with a thunderstorm like that, and most captains would tell MX to pound sand when asked to fly a plane in that condition, but because I'd set myself up to be super cautious because of my low time in a PIC role (and just to clarify I had 1000+ dual given before I ever got into the airline rat race) I was certain I was being overly cautious and everybody else would do it without a problem, so I should too. It took me about a month to realize what I was doing and completely reevaluate my frame of reference.

Looking back at that period in time, I can't believe some of the risks I deemed acceptable. I can take pride in the fact that my judgment was sound enough and my training (both from hour 0 and from my upgrade class) was good enough that I never got us into serious trouble, but it really does highlight some of the issues related to establishing a preconceived notion about how you will operate in a certain situation just because you think "everybody else" does it that way.

That attached picture is of an ACARS message that dispatch sent us when I asked how the weather was holding up. We were about 150 miles from KDAY doing 300 knots GS (nasty headwind) and outside of onboard radar range of the weather. The storm was 30 miles from DAY and doing about 60 knots across the ground. Any fool can see that the math was not going to work, but planning a divert never crossed my mind because I figured a wiser, more experienced captain would just do what Dispatch said, and fly fast and land.

We tried doing that, and it took getting about 5 miles from the airport, hitting moderate turbulence, and being struck by lightning to make me realize it was a really bad idea and to turn around and go to Columbus. In the end what made me turn around was the realization that if we continued much farther and had to go around, all of our exits would be blocked by the storm and we would have painted ourselves into a corner where the only option was to land.

It was a learning experience for me (and hopefully the FO when he upgrades and is faces with a similar decision) and was the start of turning the corner in my logic.

So, to answer Steve's question, I certainly think it is possible that more experienced pilots put pressure on newer guys, it is really on the new guys to understand their limits and not feel bad about flying the plane in a manner that makes them feel safe and competent. Sure, if Huggzie spouting off some tripe about a king air going too slowly in front of him probably in bad form and doesn't help anything? Yep, and it would be better if he maybe didn't, but at the end of the day it's up to the guy in the King Air to understand that THEY are the PIC in that airplane and need to do what they feel is the right thing, even if they think the more experienced pilots (or forum keyboard ninjas) are going to give them grief for it.
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Very nice post man.

Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk
 
I dunno, sometimes I do barberpole to the marker, sometimes I am a bit more sedate, inside the marker I don't really like to make big speed changes - though I do occasionally come screaming in and chop it if I'm trying to help ATC and its possible. I fly a big King Air, usually on the approach its 140KIAS if I'm actually flying the approach and not on the visual. On the visual I'm usually hustling.
 
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