KISN closed to UND

Well, despite feeling like i just walked into a bar that im not welcome at, heres my .02:

I started my flight training at Spartan, where i got my private. I could read check lists like a bad ass and do clearing turns like no body's business. I never realized how little practical flight experience i was getting until I moved out to Reno with a couple of buddies.

When i moved to Reno, a guy who i started with at spartan was actually my instructor, he was actually the only instructor at this branch. The Chief Instructor was all the way out in Utah. So it was just me, him and two airplanes. We had absolutely no limitations on what was permissible. While time building for my commercial I as given a credit card and told to go as far and to as many airports I could get to on a tank of gas. Short strips, gravel strips, class B airspace. It didnt matter the Chief (who was never there) figured that was the best way to get experience. It was. I look back on that flying as the most fun, and also when i learned the most. Just me and a 140hp 172 with no gps, no dme, and a single VOR flying through the mountains getting into situations that a 150 hour pilot has no business being in. There were breakdowns at airports with no mx, and no hotels, and no one to come save me. Guess what? You figure out how to make it work. Thats the whole point to this flying things. You gotta get used to working without a net. I scared the hell out of myself more times than i can count during that period, but it made me the pilot I am today, and gave me experience to build on for a lifetime. It wouldnt have been the same if there was someone there looking over my shoulder, telling me not to do something for my own good. It was a hands off operation, for better and worse at the same time.

The point is, I would have never known what I was missing if I had stayed at Spartan, because If the kool aid had time to set in, I would be sitting on the other side of the fence right now, telling pragman how dangerous it is to go into an airport like williston, and to take the more conservative approach. Screw that. I'll take flying a VOR radial through a mountain pass in the middle of the night any day of the week.
 
Dugie8 said:
I don't get it. I honestly don't get you people. Taking the conservative road is never a bad idea, ever.

This constant rage against the machine a lot of people show is getting old. The invincible attitude will get you exactly nowhere.
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Its really just a dong swinging contest.
 
cmill Good, you're a Bold pilot. Now try to get to be an old bold pilot. Sounds like your bag of luck was pretty big when you did that trip. I'm glad you made it, you think everyone will? The point is, still not your airplane. You want to take your own airplane and do that, be my guest. However, when a group of people have worked damn hard for decades to have the aircraft that they have, they do have the right to tell you what you will not be doing with their airplane.

Now, for what I have done with friends aircraft that is a whole different story. Some stories will stay stories and out of the limelight.
 
ProudPilot you completely missed the point. I don't know what "trip" you're talking about; the events described were a common occurrence, which the chief flight instructor encouraged. Me and my friends logged hundreds of hours in the Sierra nevadas, without so much as a flat spotted tire.

If all you took away from my post is that I made what you somehow perceive to be bold trips, then you're off the mark.

My whole point was that I've done it both ways, and my latter experiences were invaluable. I feel sorry that all you're ever going to know is what you've been spoon fed at UND. If you really think that what I did was "bold" by reading a few short sentences, then I might as well have a conversation with the wall, it will probably be more receptive.

Screaming_Emu the whole cowboy dong measuring argument gets pretty old. If anyone wanted to come on here and regale people about their aviation conquests, it sure wouldn't be about flying through a mountain pass, or landing on a paved runway without *gasp* a control tower.
 
ProudPilot said:
cmill Good, you're a Bold pilot. Now try to get to be an old bold pilot. Sounds like your bag of luck was pretty big when you did that trip. I'm glad you made it, you think everyone will? The point is, still not your airplane. You want to take your own airplane and do that, be my guest. However, when a group of people have worked damn hard for decades to have the aircraft that they have, they do have the right to tell you what you will not be doing with their airplane.

Now, for what I have done with friends aircraft that is a whole different story. Some stories will stay stories and out of the limelight.
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Ahh yes, the young, highly educated, yet still fairly inexperienced CFI calling out the guy with substantially more time calling him dangerous. Argument as old as aviation itself.

Lemme put it this way (let the dong measuring commence), smack dab in the middle of the "killing zone" at a whopping 260hrs I was given a job flying all over Alaska, through big passes, in terrible weather, to airports I'd never seen before, often times I'd be gone for a week or more. I had no weather reporting from some places, a runway that involved careening off the edge of a mountain after pulling off into ground effect, and more than a few times where I scared the goo out of me. That flying made me who I am today as a pilot, it created judgment, built confidence with caution, and allowed me to learn. In that time, I learned what to do when I got turned around, how to avoid thunderstorms (small Alaska ones, but tstorms nonetheless), how to read the weather and passes, how to navigate across country without any navaids, with just a compass and a chart over terrain that all looks similar. I was an absolute idiot for doing the stuff I did - the fact that I didn't auger in wearing a 172 or a 207 as my coffin astounds me to this day - especially since I've come to realize that I'm even more of an idiot than I once realized. I would do a lot of that stuff a lot different today. But it was good experience.

I respect where your argument is coming from, but believe me, experience to draw from is always good. Telling students "no" without allowing them to come to that conclusion for themselves does a disservice to their learning process. If ISN is that dangerous (and it's not really) then what's going to happen when these students are cut loose down the line and are having to make similar decisions for themselves. "Well, the FOM says we're allowed to go there, so we must be allowed to go there," doesn't cut it in a lot of circumstances. WHY? Can't you go there? FOR WHAT REASON, is the current plan of action no longer sustainable. While I can't say there should be a free-for-all, and whatever the student wants goes, if the airport is too dangerous, require a CFI for it. It is one thing when operating out of a particular airport requires a certain set of skills - mountain experience, high density altitude training, gravel/turf, skiplane operations, where a checkout or instructor supervision would be required during the initial seasoning phase, but even those airports can be solo'd to if the instructor is doing his/her job eventually. Williston, on the other hand, has two long runways, no dangerous terrain, a few towers, and good approaches. The only abnormality is the level of traffic - and really, it's not that high. I think it'd be a great experience for students. It's the perfect environment to make students really understand "See-And-Avoid" without complicating things with a tower or a convoluted arrival structure. This is the perfect place to reach over and turn off the G1000 (or whatever highfalutin electrical gizmos are in the Sioux Birds) and say, "check it out, look outside." Training has its level of risk too, the crux of this argument is a disagreement over what is considered acceptable risk.
 
cmill said:
Screaming_Emu the whole cowboy dong measuring argument gets pretty old. If anyone wanted to come on here and regale people about their aviation conquests, it sure wouldn't be about flying through a mountain pass, or landing on a paved runway without *gasp* a control tower.
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When your "competition" in said dong measuring contests are student and newly minted PPLs, the above mentioned would be overkill. It's a lot easier to point and laugh than proclaim ones superiority by talking about your own accomplishments. Big guy in the kiddie pool is what comes to mind.

This is purely threat and error management. Not being able to go to an airport in Podunk ND isn't going to leave large holes in anyone's flying abilities.
 
Screaming_Emu said:
When your "competition" in said dong measuring contests are student and newly minted PPLs, the above mentioned would be overkill. It's a lot easier to point and laugh than proclaim ones superiority by talking about your own accomplishments. Big guy in the kiddie pool is what comes to mind.

This is purely threat and error management. Not being able to go to an airport in Podunk ND isn't going to leave large holes in anyone's flying abilities.
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I strongly agree with the first part of this, strongly disagree with the second part. Midairs aren't killing people left and right willy nilly, however knowing how to see-and-avoid, and how to operate in a busy environment that doesn't have a control tower is a damn good skill to have. I've operated at uncontrolled fields with no less than 8 commercial airplanes in the vicinity at once, all converging on the same point in space. First time I experienced it, it was weird. Frankly, there aren't a lot of other airports around the Dakotas that will really teach this sort of thing under normal circumstances. You learn how to fly a pattern tight that way, and also how to anticipate where other guys are going to be. I'd say its a really good skill to have.
 
Some facts to know: (I may agree all, in part, or disagree, with them; that doesn't matter)

-UND owns the planes, UND dictates what's done with them.
-UND does have to exercise some reasonable degree of control through regulations, with regards to the experience level where the particular students are at. Judgement is one thing, but it does have to be created following some level of baseline experience first.

That said:

-It's true that restricting airports doesn't necessarily help in broadening the experience level of a student, but at the same time, is it being made for a logistical or even financial reason....(broke aircraft to get maintenance to, etc)? That could be. I don't know.
-At the same time, are there any number of other airports to get the same experience at?
-The line CFIs should work within the regs given to insure that the experience and judgement necessary to be learned, is still accomplished on all flights the students take to anywhere else. The line CFIs should insure the students are getting what they should. Granted, if it's a CFI who is a recent UND grad, he/she may not know what he/she doesn't know, so that could be a problem.

While it's not something that sounds good on the surface, I also don't know all of the reasons behind the decision made. Is it a risk thing? A money thing? A pain in the ass for the school thing? Who knows. But there should be ways for any CFI to work around and make up any potential experience shortfalls this could cause, and make those up elsewhere. Part of the CFIs job is also to teach the student about contingencies such as breaking down at airports, what to do, what options are, etc. There aren't too many things a student should be seeing for the first time on their own that they haven't at least had some kind of exposure to; maybe not firsthand experienced, but at least briefed, so they have some sort of info to fall back on.
 
Dugie8 said:
Not a dong swinging contest, ok....
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Yeah, because my greatest moments came when i had 150 hours. Seriously? Did you even read my post? The point I was trying to make, and that ppragman put more eloquently is that you gotta come of the tit and get out into the real world sooner or later.

Screaming_Emu said:
When your "competition" in said dong measuring contests are student and newly minted PPLs, the above mentioned would be overkill. It's a lot easier to point and laugh than proclaim ones superiority by talking about your own accomplishments. Big guy in the kiddie pool is what comes to mind.

This is purely threat and error management. Not being able to go to an airport in Podunk ND isn't going to leave large holes in anyone's flying abilities.
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If recounting my own experiences as a new private pilot in an attempt convey how important that experience was is dong measuring, then I'm guilty. If that's the case then no one with more experience would be able to convey anything they've learned without being labeled as a egotistical baffoon. As far as not going into ISN, I'd be more concerned with the reasons they can't go there than the fact they can't go there.
 
cmill said:
Well, despite feeling like i just walked into a bar that im not welcome at, heres my .02:

I started my flight training at Spartan, where i got my private. I could read check lists like a bad ass and do clearing turns like no body's business. I never realized how little practical flight experience i was getting until I moved out to Reno with a couple of buddies.

When i moved to Reno, a guy who i started with at spartan was actually my instructor, he was actually the only instructor at this branch. The Chief Instructor was all the way out in Utah. So it was just me, him and two airplanes. We had absolutely no limitations on what was permissible. While time building for my commercial I as given a credit card and told to go as far and to as many airports I could get to on a tank of gas. Short strips, gravel strips, class B airspace. It didnt matter the Chief (who was never there) figured that was the best way to get experience. It was. I look back on that flying as the most fun, and also when i learned the most. Just me and a 140hp 172 with no gps, no dme, and a single VOR flying through the mountains getting into situations that a 150 hour pilot has no business being in. There were breakdowns at airports with no mx, and no hotels, and no one to come save me. Guess what? You figure out how to make it work. Thats the whole point to this flying things. You gotta get used to working without a net. I scared the hell out of myself more times than i can count during that period, but it made me the pilot I am today, and gave me experience to build on for a lifetime. It wouldnt have been the same if there was someone there looking over my shoulder, telling me not to do something for my own good. It was a hands off operation, for better and worse at the same time.

The point is, I would have never known what I was missing if I had stayed at Spartan, because If the kool aid had time to set in, I would be sitting on the other side of the fence right now, telling pragman how dangerous it is to go into an airport like williston, and to take the more conservative approach. Screw that. I'll take flying a VOR radial through a mountain pass in the middle of the night any day of the week.
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The point is, you or your family would not have had a large aviation college to sue if anything would have happened to you. The purpose of the "UND bubble" is driven by legal consequences.
 
N261ND said:
The point is, you or your family would not have had a large aviation college to sue if anything would have happened to you. The purpose of the "UND bubble" is driven by legal consequences.
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I think it is interesting that these 'best flight schools in the country' come with a bubble to keep you from getting the most out of training.
 
tlewis95 said:
I think it is interesting that these 'best flight schools in the country' come with a bubble to keep you from getting the most out of training.
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Marketing is everything.

While, I've known some s-hot UND grads, it produces pilots like anything else, after 2000hrs they're all mostly the same - whether they went to UND or ATP.
 
gotWXdagain said:
My skyhawk is bigger than your skyhawk.
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I pimped mine.
610_1.jpg

Note: Not actually mine but still WAY bigger than your skyhawk.
 
jhugz said:
And people wonder why 135 companies shy away from 141 students.
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Yeah, I haven't really had any problems, more like 141 students shy away from 135 companies due to lower pay guarantee. Not everyone, but I know I've looked and, well, you know my career change. Money isn't everything, but it certainly is something.
 
I was a sheltered Riddle grad. Flown 121 and 135; the 135 company was happy to have us. Never heard of them shying away from 141.

Also, Riddle now constitutes so little of my total professional experience that it doesn't matter which airports they let me fly to. Really, it doesn't matter if you were 141 or 61, or your flight school let you do cooler stuff than the big name. In the end, it means very little once you're outside that training environment.
 
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