Contaminated Runway Landings

MoMatt

MoMatt

Well-Known Member
Wanted to solicit some discussion on a specific situation. Assume we're talking about a turbine aircraft with an anti skid system.

Let's say during landing you encounter an unexpected icy runway or icy patch and you begin to lose control of the airplane. It reaches the point where you realize it's inevitable that you're going to depart from the runway off the side. Assume you're still going ~80-100 knots or so.

What do you do next?

After going off the side of the runway, do you attempt to get back onto the runway surface?

Or, do you switch gears and ride it out, using whatever rudder / braking / reverse thrust authority you have to keep the nose straight and wait for the mud or snow to drag you to a stop?

Let's take it a step farther and say the runway excursion doesn't happen until you're down to 20-30 knots. Does the technique change?

Does anyone's company have guidance on such a specific situation, whether it was through training or in the ops manual?

I was talking to my father about this (he's a retired airline pilot) and he thought that every airline he worked for had specific guidance to not attempt to return to the runway surface and to just maintain as much control as possible until the aircraft stops. The theory being that it will minimize damage to the aircraft / potential for injury. It's been a while since he's been cozy with an ops manual or training class, though.

However, the couple people I've asked that work at 121 regionals haven't seen / heard any guidance on this.

I realize every situation is different, there are so many factors, etc. etc... But I'm just curious if anyone's company has gone so far as to put forth written or verbal guidance on this topic.

Thanks!
 
Very interesting questions. Youve got me curious so I think I may have to pull out my companies AOM and see what it says.
 
If I were to go off the side of a runway I would first focus on not getting myself killed. Last thing I need to run into is a
glide slope antenna head on.
 
If I'm still moving, I'm still fighting. Once it comes to a stop, pretty much game over. Easy enough to damage a airplane taxing it off in the dirt/mud.
 
If you couldn't control it on the runway, I doubt it would be controllable on an icy or snowpacked infield.
 
Not really anything specific in our manuals about this either. Our manuals mostly talk about determinng performance on contaminated runways and not a whole lot about techniques for actual control manipulation. In fact the only things it states in regard to actual operation during a landing are to achieve a positive touchdown in the first 1000'-1500', apply brakes in a single, firm application (do not pump them), and essentially be careful with reverse thrust, especially in crosswinds, for directional control issues.

Speaking to the last thing, I only have about 2,500 hours in the CRJ, but the most puckered I have been in one was during a cross-wind landing rollout with high thrust reverser usage. That thing can really be a bear to keep straight, especially if you have engines that like to spool up asymmetrically. I'm not sure how other airframes behave, but I've seen some weird rudder-blanking while using thrust reversers in the CRJ.
 
Maintain as much directional control as possible, max braking and thrust reversers as necessary (use sparingly on contaminated surfaces).

All numbers are predicated on max braking with no reverse thrust, so continue to do it, and try to stay away from the side of the mountain, as well as man made structures/vehicles.
 
This happened to me several years ago. Only I wasn't going off side of runway I was going sideways down center of it. I first dropped F bomb than craped my pants. Rudder input straightened out than oh Jesus power setting and took off than reported missed approach cuz I didn't cancel IFR.
 
Maurus said:
If I were to go off the side of a runway I would first focus on not getting myself killed. Last thing I need to run into is a
glide slope antenna head on.
Click to expand...

If you're running into the glideslope antenna you didn't even land on the runway! :P
 
Forgot about this thread. Thanks for the replies. After discussing it a lot more I think it really just depends on the situation and it's best left up to judgment in the moment, though still good things to think about or "chair fly."

JayAre said:
This happened to me several years ago. Only I wasn't going off side of runway I was going sideways down center of it. I first dropped F bomb than craped my pants. Rudder input straightened out than oh Jesus power setting and took off than reported missed approach cuz I didn't cancel IFR.
Click to expand...

We talked through this situation too. One thing that came up was the possibility of trying to go around with spoilers / TR's out, and causing a lot more problems. Again, depends on the situation and at that point, survival instinct (which I hear usually kicks in just after the F bomb...)
 
JayAre said:
This happened to me several years ago. Only I wasn't going off side of runway I was going sideways down center of it. I first dropped F bomb than craped my pants. Rudder input straightened out than oh Jesus power setting and took off than reported missed approach cuz I didn't cancel IFR.
Click to expand...
Once thrust reversers are selected (never mind deployed) you are committed to a full stop landing. The possibility of a bucket not stowing and the consequent loss of directional control and missed approach climb performance (assuming you can control the aircraft at all with one engine at takeoff thrust with a reverser deployed) is much worse than maybe hitting something on the side of the runway, in my book. There's no guarantee you'll actually get airborne, either. I'd rather hit something doing 30 knots than doing 150+ knots. (I'd really rather not hit anything, given a choice.)

MoMatt said:
We talked through this situation too. One thing that came up was the possibility of trying to go around with spoilers / TR's out, and causing a lot more problems. Again, depends on the situation and at that point, survival instinct (which I hear usually kicks in just after the F bomb...)
Click to expand...
Again, on my airplane, it is a limitation - once reverse thrust is selected you are stopping, it's just a question of where and how vigorously. Also on my airplane, the ground spoilers retract when the thrust levers are advanced a certain amount. One hopes they all stow, of course.
 
MoMatt said:
Wanted to solicit some discussion on a specific situation. Assume we're talking about a turbine aircraft with an anti skid system.

Let's say during landing you encounter an unexpected icy runway or icy patch and you begin to lose control of the airplane. It reaches the point where you realize it's inevitable that you're going to depart from the runway off the side. Assume you're still going ~80-100 knots or so.

What do you do next?

After going off the side of the runway, do you attempt to get back onto the runway surface?

Or, do you switch gears and ride it out, using whatever rudder / braking / reverse thrust authority you have to keep the nose straight and wait for the mud or snow to drag you to a stop?

Let's take it a step farther and say the runway excursion doesn't happen until you're down to 20-30 knots. Does the technique change?

Does anyone's company have guidance on such a specific situation, whether it was through training or in the ops manual?

I was talking to my father about this (he's a retired airline pilot) and he thought that every airline he worked for had specific guidance to not attempt to return to the runway surface and to just maintain as much control as possible until the aircraft stops. The theory being that it will minimize damage to the aircraft / potential for injury. It's been a while since he's been cozy with an ops manual or training class, though.

However, the couple people I've asked that work at 121 regionals haven't seen / heard any guidance on this.

I realize every situation is different, there are so many factors, etc. etc... But I'm just curious if anyone's company has gone so far as to put forth written or verbal guidance on this topic.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

I'd come to a stop off the runway and assess damage (and possibly a need to evac). More than likely we'd be stuck, and in danger of FODing engines (if it didn't already happen) if you tried to power out.
 
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