AMR Seeks Pilot Concessions........Again

ATN_Pilot said:
Trip7, the problem is that unions are always in a horrible position in these situations because of the way that the bankruptcy code is currently structured. Judges don't engage in negotiations, so if they decide to grant an 1113(c) motion, then it basically means that the company can just impose its term sheet. The judge isn't going to pick and choose items here and there from both sides proposals. He's just going to decide if the company needs concessions to restructure and protect the creditors. If he thinks they do, then he grants the motion, and AMR imposes. Negotiations will certainly happen between the union and the company, because the law requires it, but the outcome of those negotiations is usually something pretty damned bad. Yes, the most glaring examples will probably disappear (no min guarantee, for example), but I would be surprised if they don't get their scope concessions and pay banding in the end. And that's bad news. Especially the scope.
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Thanks for the info. Didn't know the unions had that little leverage in this situation. Just read an article about the CEO's intent to grow the airline 17% by 2017. Speculation is that AMR will following directly in Delta's post bankruptcy footsteps. Shrink domestic mainline, grow domestic regional, and grow mainline International. I believe UNICAL plans to do the same thing as the CEO was recently quoted saying domestic ops will be sized predominantly to feed international ops.
 
Well, that takes care of the so called "pilot shortage" if that's all true. No place to move on from the regionals if the regionals get all the domestic flying....
 
kellwolf said:
Well, that takes care of the so called "pilot shortage" if that's all true. No place to move on from the regionals if the regionals get all the domestic flying....
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Depends on how much of an international expansion these carriers are planning. AMR and UNICAl both have the "game-changer" on order but that may be just replacements for those aging 767s.

I don't blame the legacy airlines for putting domestic ops in the backseat and focusing on intl. in an industry that struggles for profit as much as this one, focusing on the most profitable types of flying maybe a smart move. Especially with Emirates, Qatar, Ethiad and the like expanding at a FURIOUS pace. Emirates and Qatar 777 upgrade time (4 yrs) is shorter than ASA CRJ200 upgrade......
 
Am I right that the over 60's at AA who stuck around, will have ended up paying money to work the past 4 years? Or am I missing something?
 
Hootie said:
Am I right that the over 60's at AA who stuck around, will have ended up paying money to work the past 4 years? Or am I missing something?
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It all depends on how much of the A-fund they get. Talking to a 737 CA, he said if they don't get anything out of the A-fund then any CA over 60 can't make the money back up. For some guys on the 73 and 80 it is even worse and it sounds like anyone over 55 doesn't have the time left to make up the money.
 
Trip7 said:
Depends on how much of an international expansion these carriers are planning. AMR and UNICAl both have the "game-changer" on order but that may be just replacements for those aging 767s.

I don't blame the legacy airlines for putting domestic ops in the backseat and focusing on intl. in an industry that struggles for profit as much as this one, focusing on the most profitable types of flying maybe a smart move. Especially with Emirates, Qatar, Ethiad and the like expanding at a FURIOUS pace. Emirates and Qatar 777 upgrade time (4 yrs) is shorter than ASA CRJ200 upgrade......
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With the new int'l work rules, they don't even need as many as they have now, though. I'm a little shaky on the details, but Doug's got it all planned out already. If they decide to increase capacity by putting bigger airplanes on routes and reduce frequency on the int'l routes (ie go with a 777 once daily that's full rather than 2 mostly empty 767s), that will reduce jobs as well. If they make more money by reducing frequency (frequency on int'l routes isn't near as desired as frequency on domestic routes), you can bet they'll do it.

Basically, I'm not buying into this whole pilot shortage until it actual happens. Hell, the AMR bankruptcy is already affecting me. jetBlue is scaling back hiring because some of the guys that WOULD have been accepting recall are sticking around. Fewer new hire classes this year because of it.
 
That list of concessions that AA wants made me puke. Radar depicts areas of heavy to extreme precipitation 12 o clock and 1 mile....
 
Hey now, its not ALL that bad...Horton and the AMR exec's still take home thier massive pay checks, millions in bonuses and when the time comes, Horton will be able to open his very own golden parachute! :sarcasm: Ahhh where the industry has gone...who knows where it will go....and if we get there with it, we are either fools, or gluttons for punishment. Anyone one up for an industry wide 24-hr strike? HA!:eek2:
 
I read somwhere (NY Times I believe) that AMR's labor costs are somewhere around 30% higher than their competitors. Not that this thing is going to be pretty but from a sheer competitive stand point, how does anyone expect them to be able to compete with the likes of DL with such a cost structure?
 
meritflyer said:
I read somwhere (NY Times I believe) that AMR's labor costs are somewhere around 30% higher than their competitors. Not that this thing is going to be pretty but from a sheer competitive stand point, how does anyone expect them to be able to compete with the likes of DL with such a cost structure?
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Because labor is nowhere near 30% of their costs, so 30% high is like 3% greater total costs, and the loss of money is a lot more than 3%.

They could eliminate labor entirely and be donated a group of robots at no cost that work for free on solar power and then the might be competitive.

That's exaggerated a bit, but even if they cut the labor cost back by the 30%, they've still got money issues. Might as well cut back labor as little as possible so you can still have a somewhat productive workforce in a business where customer service matters.
 
meritflyer said:
I read somwhere (NY Times I believe) that AMR's labor costs are somewhere around 30% higher than their competitors. Not that this thing is going to be pretty but from a sheer competitive stand point, how does anyone expect them to be able to compete with the likes of DL with such a cost structure?
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I don't. I've said for a long time that they're going to have to cut costs. The problem is that they're going too far, of course. Instead of the reasonable things, like freezing the pension and going to a B-Fund, they're going all out with craziness like hundreds of 88-seat RJs outsourced and punishing you for being sick. They need to cut costs, but not like that.
 
Nick said:
Because labor is nowhere near 30% of their costs, so 30% high is like 3% greater total costs, and the loss of money is a lot more than 3%.

They could eliminate labor entirely and be donated a group of robots at no cost that work for free on solar power and then the might be competitive.

That's exaggerated a bit, but even if they cut the labor cost back by the 30%, they've still got money issues. Might as well cut back labor as little as possible so you can still have a somewhat productive workforce in a business where customer service matters.
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I think you went alittle overboard here
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't. I've said for a long time that they're going to have to cut costs. The problem is that they're going too far, of course. Instead of the reasonable things, like freezing the pension and going to a B-Fund, they're going all out with craziness like hundreds of 88-seat RJs outsourced and punishing you for being sick. They need to cut costs, but not like that.
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100% agree. Spot on
 
ATN_Pilot said:
I don't. I've said for a long time that they're going to have to cut costs. The problem is that they're going too far, of course. Instead of the reasonable things, like freezing the pension and going to a B-Fund, they're going all out with craziness like hundreds of 88-seat RJs outsourced and punishing you for being sick. They need to cut costs, but not go to excessive lengths to piss the labor groups off (more).
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FTFY... ;)
 
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