Article on Fox News
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BeRich
Very Special Agent
That's why.
Mark815
Well-Known Member
I couldn't make it past that line. I'm sorry but this is the DUMBEST mentality that is in the regional world IMO. Oh you're only responsible for the lives of 50 people, and not 300, so you deserve to get paid less than squat. Regionals should not be the experience builders. You should HAVE experience when you strap into a jet carrying 50+ people. This isn't a skyhawk at Bobs flight school to time build, it's a complicated piece of machinery , with serious repercussions if something goes wrong.
And there en lies the problem folks. You JUST admitted that the job requires extensive and expensive training, yet with all that knowledge you'll still settle to make less than someone at starbucks.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Great Lakes and Key Lime fly planes that don't have a flight attendant, plus I doubt the person being interviewed flies for either of them since they mentioned 50 seat jet and mainline paint but subcontract carrier.
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
He said the quiet room was absolute quiet. I LOLed.
I honestly think this piece was written as a PR piece for the airlines.
I honestly think this piece was written as a PR piece for the airlines.
I didn't take the regional route because of the pay. Had the pay been on par with the job, I might have.
Trip7
Well-Known Member
Here's the problem I have with this statement and dislike when pilots repeat it to the media.
Being a barista at Starbucks is a low end job. Being a pilot is a career. Over a 5 year period who will make more the pilot or barista? How about over a 10 year period?
The problem is 1st year pay. There is none of this low 1st year pay ludicrousness overseas and it still exists stateside even at the mainline level. Its ridiculous. Why does and Emirates newhire start at over 100k and a Delta newhire start at 50k? I'd have no problem with someone telling the media that 1st year pay is aviation's dirty little secret that is as much the union's fault as it is management.
But to continually go to the media with the intent of letting them know that majority of regional pilots make Starbucks pay year after year is irresponsible and ultimately will hinder any kind of respect we are trying to get.
Nick
Well-Known Member
No, the problem is not first year pay.
A barista and airline pilot are not even in the same league so it is pointless to compare them.
Emirates first year pay is not $100,000.
New hire pay is lower because it is negotiated that way. Everyone does it once and so making first year pay higher uses negotiating capital that might result in worse work rules etc. The first year is also the year that the company foots the bill for training, and where I work it was quoted at $38,000 per new hire. It's less now but still, it's a lot to send someone through school.
I'm not sure if you think that if first year pay were made higher, everything would be okay? That is almost the message I got from your post. Perhaps I interpreted something wrong. I sure hope so.
CzechAirman
Well-Known Member
The regional airline is a JOB that has turned into a CAREER for most regional pilots. It still has the pay, benefits and QOL of a JOB due to it still being thought of as an entry level position with thoughts of moving up to the major airlines within a few years.
The question is since most regional pilots will be making a CAREER of what once was a JOB, how do you raise the pay, benefits and QOL to the levels commensurate with a CAREER position?
If you make it a CAREER position, due you still hire entry level pilots fresh from universities or flight schools with little or no experience that would be appropriate for an entry level JOB, or due you pass over those guys and hire pilots with some real experience befitting a CAREER position. It's like the ultimate catch-22, the entry level JOB has now become a CAREER and how does the current regional pilots raise the bar to befit a CAREER while you still have thousands of airline wannabes clamoring to take any available regional JOB at the current pay, benefits and QOL?
Nick
Well-Known Member
You certainly have command of the English language, if nothing else.
For once though, I agree with the theme of your post.
CzechAirman
Well-Known Member
Trip7
Well-Known Member
First year pay is not the one and only problem but it is a problem. I am shocked that you are actually defending first year pay. I don't care that the company is footing the bill for initial training. That bill still pales in comparison to the bill I just paid to get the job. Every airline overseas that I can think of has starting pay that is very close to what you will make in the following years. They foot the bill for training too but still pay a respectable starting wage. BTW, a pilot starting at Emirates who takes the housing allowance will be paid over $10,000 a month tax free. If you don't take the housing allowance its around $7,000 a month (including flight pay) but its all tax free so the equivalent of well over $100,000 a year in the USA.
Anyway, my belief is the low first year pay in the USA has turned into a dirty tradition caused by union/management politics at both the regional and legacy level. Like you said, first year pay is not high on the list of things to use negotiating capital on. But you also stated, you only do it once which is correct. My initial point was it looks silly to constantly go to the media and paint a picture that all regional pilots are making 25k year after year while slumming it in an RV with 10 other people at LAX just for the golden chance of making it to the majors sometime this lifetime. When pilots do this we are not any worse than media when they release inaccurate and sensational stories
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
You just answered your own question...
edit...wow I was late on that one. Stupid refresh! ;-)
Okie_Pilot
Pitts Builder
Yeah, but the Barista at StarBucks has set hours and he's sleeping in his own bed every night too..... Who's to say he won't be promoted to Manager before you start making into the $30k range...
I had a real interest in flying for the airlines years ago. That was until I learned about the starting pay, the crashpads, the trailers, the QOL, the pay if your not working for a Major. I love flying, but I'm not going to sacrifice my life for it. I'd rather have a job that pays more, I sleep in my bed nearly every night and I make enough to own my own airplane. For those that do it now, no disrespect whatsoever. You're putting up with more than I could.
I had a real interest in flying for the airlines years ago. That was until I learned about the starting pay, the crashpads, the trailers, the QOL, the pay if your not working for a Major. I love flying, but I'm not going to sacrifice my life for it. I'd rather have a job that pays more, I sleep in my bed nearly every night and I make enough to own my own airplane. For those that do it now, no disrespect whatsoever. You're putting up with more than I could.
CzechAirman
Well-Known Member
You sound like you think that because you went to some fancy aviation university or puppy mill flight school and spent tens of thousands of dollars to get to a minimum level of experience for the regionals that you are entitled to starting pay well in excess of what you and your experience bring to the table. You are an entry level pilot with minimal experience and you are working at an entry level job that is sought after by thousands more just like you. You are in essence, an "apprentice" airline pilot, so don't expect to get paid like a "master" airline pilot until you pay your dues and master the craft.
block30
Well-Known Member
Did anyone read that Reader's Digest article from maybe a year ago, about airline pilots? I cannot forget some pilot talking about the crap pay, starting over at first year pay, furloughs, bankruptcies....you get the idea. Then the guy goes on to say he still can't believe he gets paid to live the dream or something, and that's how he article ends.....sleep well America, your pilots don't really care what they make because they are 'living the dream'. (smacks head) DOH!!!
Nick
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't consider myself defending first year pay, just thinking realistically in terms of negotiating power.
Think of it this way. If this was approximate annual payscale for a CRJ-200 first officer (as it should be, as a minimum, in my opinion)
1st year $50K
2 $70K
3 $80K
4 $90K
5 $95K
6 $98K
7 $100K
8 $101K
...then would first year pay be a big deal? It'd be a much lower pay rate than the rest of the years of longevity, but totally liveable and well above the poverty line. The poverty line should not even be a phrase that is used when discussed salary of a job with this amount of responsibility.
So defending a first year pay rate that is lower, in my opinion, is not necessarily bad. It is the pay RATES that are atrocious, unacceptable, and not conducive to safety. The concept of a lower rate the first year is not truly the problem.
The difference is, their payrates were not negotiated for a contract and some of them have to have additional perks just to get people to apply.
If Emirates, Qatar, Gulf Air, etc. don't offer some incentive for Americans, Europeans, Australians, and others to come there and work, then all they are going to get is people who want a job during a furlough or something after they got laid off.
Just look at Virgin America. Same situation as the carriers I mentioned above as far as not having a contract yet they still have much lower first year pay. Why? I think part of it is because they know they'll have plenty of applicants who are willing to put up with it because they are not moving their whole life to the Middle East.
I'm as aware as you are about Emirates compensation; I was at a Halloween party on Sheikk Zayed road in the Emirates Sahara tower a few months ago and one of my roommates has an interview there. I see what you are saying, if you want to include opting out of housing and taking the money for it, then I guess that puts the compensation over $100,000 which is mostly tax free.
I think that's great. The pay issue needs to be put out there. Nobody in this country cares, but it's still okay for it to be out there.
Just because second year is $35K doesn't make it even close to acceptable. That is an absurd salary for this job.
The RV type story with pilots making $25K a year is not sensationalizing at all. Continental doesn't even give health insurance for the first half year. Pathetic!
Trip7
Well-Known Member
True, a payscale like that would not make 1st year pay that big of a deal. Now the economic viability of that kind of payrate for 50 seat ops in a business with profit margins less than 3% during a GOOD year, is another story. IMO, current payrates for most regional jet operators outside of 1st year pay is a decent liveable wage. Now its a fact that those same payrates(outside of 1st yr pay) are far above the poverty line. Whether the payrates are atrocious, unacceptable, and not conducive to safety are all a subject of opinion and that can be debated for days.
As far as the Middle East carriers, my point wasn't just limited to them. For the most part every foreign carrier I came upon had a starting pay that was close to what they'd be making in the following years. No huge first year difference just because they were new. Even here in the US outside of the airline industry companies like Netjets have a first year pay that is not a huge difference from the 2nd or 3rd.
I agree completely with you that 1st year pay is not that big a problem. I went through it, survived, and now making a decent wage (opinion of course). It may be a problem far down the list of issues to address in this industry, but it sure is number 1 to show up in every media report, and forum post. Now imagine if that 1st year pay was eliminated at every single major and regional airline. I believe it would DRASTICALLY change how we present our problems to the media.
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
You explained it to yourself.
Cyper42
Well-Known Member
I'd like to hear the logic on that one too, although I suspect the true answer is "we like money and we can"