Poke and Hope

z987k said:
That's easy. Fly an approach at a nearby airport that has one, cancel IFR, fly vfr under the layer to your destination. I don't know if I'd do that in a lear.... depending on the terrain and how low I'd have to go I guess.

Also.... I fail to see what your instructors scenario(the accident) has to do with yours.
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I think thats a quick way to kill yourself anywhere but, if MEA is 6000 and field elevation is 2000 I can assume this is mountainous terrain, Now its as if you want to die. You have no idea what the weather between the airports are, heavy rain, fog, or any number of other things can restrict visibility, flying in mountainous terrain often leaves you with limited options even when you are on a published approach. Point is if the weather is bad enough at your field to not get in, and the weather at a nearby field (how nearby?) is low enough to have to shoot an approach as well, I am going to divert or just land at that nearby airport until conditions improve. If my boss questioned me I would tell him that my job is to get my passengers where they are going safely and then get them back to see their wife and kids, and I am going to make sure I can do the same thing.
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
I think thats a quick way to kill yourself anywhere but, if MEA is 6000 and field elevation is 2000 I can assume this is mountainous terrain, Now its as if you want to die. You have no idea what the weather between the airports are, heavy rain, fog, or any number of other things can restrict visibility, flying in mountainous terrain often leaves you with limited options even when you are on a published approach. Point is if the weather is bad enough at your field to not get in, and the weather at a nearby field (how nearby?) is low enough to have to shoot an approach as well, I am going to divert or just land at that nearby airport until conditions improve. If my boss questioned me I would tell him that my job is to get my passengers where they are going safely and then get them back to see their wife and kids, and I am going to make sure I can do the same thing.
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You're right in your assumption. The airport that I had in mind when I went through this scenario was Wickenburg (E25), if you're familiar with the AZ landscape. North of the Bravo, about 40NM NW of the nearest IAP (DVT). I appreciate all of the feedback. I have no desire to kill myself, but to know and understand all sides of the picture. The only other thing suggested was to proceed to DVT, shoot the approach, cancel on the approach and go VFR to Wickenburg, which was also previously suggested in this thread. Great insight, and I appreciate everyone's input.
 
Pilotforhire587 said:
I think thats a quick way to kill yourself anywhere but, if MEA is 6000 and field elevation is 2000 I can assume this is mountainous terrain, Now its as if you want to die. You have no idea what the weather between the airports are, heavy rain, fog, or any number of other things can restrict visibility, flying in mountainous terrain often leaves you with limited options even when you are on a published approach. Point is if the weather is bad enough at your field to not get in, and the weather at a nearby field (how nearby?) is low enough to have to shoot an approach as well, I am going to divert or just land at that nearby airport until conditions improve. If my boss questioned me I would tell him that my job is to get my passengers where they are going safely and then get them back to see their wife and kids, and I am going to make sure I can do the same thing.
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We do it all the time(as in every day, 5 days a week), part 135. If there's no approach, then how do you propose we get down? Very often you do know what the weather is. There's probably even an asos or something at the vfr airport. Plus we're only talking maybe 40 miles VFR tops, a pilot with some experience flying in the area has a really good idea of what the weather is like. I'm in OR, and we're not talking the central valley. Coast and east of the Cascades.
In the case of the coastal run, it's real easy... you can go fly just off the shoreline and you know where the bottom is.... 0.
 
z987k said:
We do it all the time(as in every day, 5 days a week), part 135. If there's no approach, then how do you propose we get down? Very often you do know what the weather is. There's probably even an asos or something at the vfr airport. Plus we're only talking maybe 40 miles VFR tops, a pilot with some experience flying in the area has a really good idea of what the weather is like. I'm in OR, and we're not talking the central valley. Coast and east of the Cascades.
In the case of the coastal run, it's real easy... you can go fly just off the shoreline and you know where the bottom is.... 0.
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You may have an AWOS at the airport you intend to land at, and if its good VFR and you can tell ATC that you have the airport in sight, shoot the visual. If its along the coast or someplace flat like in the plains in an area with out antennas everywhere I don't see a problem if the weather is good VFR. In the example mentioned above though he was in mountainous terrain, if the MEA is 4000' higher than field elevation you are going to have issues. Weather anywhere can change drastically but in the mountains you can count on it. Even in the span of 10 miles you can go from sunny VFR to crap and then back. Most airports in mountains are in valleys, that being said if you shoot an approach down 1000'AGL or so and you then have to fly VFR, that means maintain your visibility and cloud separation requirements you are asking for trouble. You said 40 miles but even if its 10NM, you get down cancel IFR and proceed to your destination down valley 3000' below MEA, what will you do if you encounter heavy snow, or fog between the two airports? You may have weather at both fields but you have no way of knowing what is going on between them. You are in a down low, what if you don't have the room to turn around, what if visibility goes to crap and your only choice is to climb? What do you do? Break regs and risk your life because you were stupid. If ATC can't vector you below a certain altitude there is probably a good reason for it.

Please, don't be dumb.
 
There is a time and place for it, and it can be done safely. I wouldn't recommend it to a new pilot, or someone unfamiliar with the area. GPS is always nice to make sure you don't make a wrong turn, even if you know the area. It's also not for learjets... or probably any jet, but small turbo-props and pistons work.

While not around telluride, there are a lot of areas out west where it's not really mountainous, despite the classifications, and the radar coverage is terrible, places where the MVA is 8000' above the surface and there's hardly a hill for 50 miles.
 
Canassis said:
Sorry for the perceived "hit and run"; life, ya know? Thanks for all of the replies, and I'm glad that Z in the above post asks me to define "poke and hope", and I'll do that. In reading some of the replies, I'm finding that I wasn't clear enough in my initial post as to what the context of the conversation was, so here goes....

If you are flying IFR @ 11,000 into an uncontrolled field with NO instrument approaches, field elevation in the area is 2000, MEA is 6000, and there is a cloud layer over the airport at 4000, what do you do when the controller asks if you have the field in sight, and than advises that you're below the MVA? This is where I asked the question, "What do you REALLY do if you need to get into that field?"

Hope it clarifies...
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What do you REALLY do? Depends on the area. Like others have said, appch somewhere else then vfr to airport.

If you really wanna have fun, we can get into shooting an approach down to circling mins, cancelling IFR, and going SVFR to a different field in the same airspace. If you think a 4000' ceiling is sketch, go down to 500'/1mi, and bomb around for a couple of miles. It's completely legal, but a lot less safe than the illegality of going through a layer at 4000.

Bottom line is what some people would call patently dangerous, arent really so if you have the proper training and know the area. I understand the point your instructor was trying to make; however, there are plenty of extremely more dangerous, legal ways to get yourself killed.
 
I safely flew vfr below mva and mea's for nearly all of my training... With proper planing it's a non event. shooting an approach to get below is very very common in some areas.

Use a sectional, practice situational awareness, and go fly a plane. Obviously while planning, if there is a mountain or such in your way... Then don't. If you can legally fly vfr, then having a cloud layer above you changes nothing, you can still go vfr... Or should all pilots be required to file IFR if there is a layer below MVA, MSA, or MOCA? MEA at my home airport is 5000 feet. If I want to go buzz over to pwm at 3500 ft vfr, I won't have an issue. If I have to shoot an approach to get below the 5000 foot layer, then fine.
 
This thread popped up again and I wanted to add:

The lear 45 is a category C aircraft, at TEX category C aircraft are N/A to fly the published IFR approach.

A very good reason to go to Montrose but still not gonna second guess the crew.
 
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