8 Hours

surreal1221

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Is not enough...when...

There is a 20 minute ride to the hotel...

You wait 20 minutes for the other crew...that never shows, but the van driver insists they are coming...

What an amazing legal world we get to play in.

Thanks OMB! Those FT/DT changes are going to cost jobs...especially when it keeps sitting on your desk and companies run productive (don't get me wrong - that's fine) four day trips with schedule minimum rest overnights every other evening.

Or, another Company..or the same Company from a few years ago, bends metal. This time perhaps, with a crew that lives in domicile. Can't chase that Commuter scapegoat now can ya?

End Happy Rant.

Good night...time to get 6 hours of sleep, somehow.
 
If it is that bad then I put my foot down and inform scheduling of our new report time.

They then have the option of that or a quadruple fatigue call if the rest of the crew feels too tired to do it safely.

Simple choice for the scheduler.
 
From the PNCL contract:

"5. Minimum Rest at Hotel If, upon arrival at the lodging facility, excluding stops for food, shopping, etc., less than the Pilot’s minimum required rest period minus fifteen (15) minutes remains before the Pilot’s next report time, such report time shall be delayed in order to provide the Pilot at least his minimum required rest period minus fifteen (15)minutes between his arrival at the lodging facility and his adjusted report time. The Pilot shall notify Crew Scheduling to coordinate the adjustment of his rest period. Example: A Pilot has a minimum rest requirement of 8 hours. Although his release time to report time indicates 8 hours, if his arrival at the hotel is such that the time from hotel arrival to report time is only 7 hours and 35 minutes, the Pilot’s report time will delayed adjusted by 10 minutes to allow for 7 hours and 45 minutes between hotel arrival and report time.
 
As a part 91 operator we often choose to follow part 121 guidelines to take advantage of the increased safety that the conservative regulation often provides.

Crew rest is not one of those areas. Part 121 crew rest is completely insufficient. Our minimum rest is variable. At our domicile we can not be scheduled for less than ten hours from duty-out to duty-in.

On an overnight the minimum is 11 hours. That is the 8 hours rest plus an hour and a half after duty to allow for transportation, food, etc and another hour and a half in the morning for the same. Rest begins 30 minutes after touchdown or upon arrival at the hotel - whichever is later. Rest ends one hour prior to departure.

If we arrive after midnight or fly within the circadian low we add an hour and need at least 12 hours rest between duty periods.

I look forward to seeing the new 121 rest rules. Hopefully they will improve substantially. A rising tide lifts all ships.
 
ZapBrannigan said:
As a part 91 operator we often choose to follow part 121 guidelines to take advantage of the increased safety that the conservative regulation often provides.

Crew rest is not one of those areas. Part 121 crew rest is completely insufficient. Our minimum rest is variable. At our domicile we can not be scheduled for less than ten hours from duty-out to duty-in.

On an overnight the minimum is 11 hours. That is the 8 hours rest plus an hour and a half after duty to allow for transportation, food, etc and another hour and a half in the morning for the same. Rest begins 30 minutes after touchdown or upon arrival at the hotel - whichever is later. Rest ends one hour prior to departure.

If we arrive after midnight or fly within the circadian low we add an hour and need at least 12 hours rest between duty periods.

I look forward to seeing the new 121 rest rules. Hopefully they will improve substantially. A rising tide lifts all ships.
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The part 91 operator I worked at also looked at the 121 and 135 rest rules, declared them insufficient, and added a generous amount of required, non-reducible rest on top of it.
 
surreal1221 said:
Good night...time to get 6 hours of sleep, somehow.
Click to expand...

I agree with the above... If you don't feel like you are going to have enough rest, call scheduling and ask them to adjust your show time in the morning. If they are unwilling... then they are facing a early morning Fatigue call. (probably at an outstation) It's sometimes good to explain it to them - very calmly on a recorded line. (and find a way to record the call yourself, as the tapes cannot become mysteriously lost - this used to work great on my Treo - I recorded every call in and out and only copied the company calls to my CPU) I only had to do this a few times, but I didn't hesitate to call in fatigued when I was.

CYA and Stay Well Rested.
 
Yeah, the last one of those I did merited a fatigue call. Of course, the outdoor wedding party just below our windows didn't help...o_O
 
Had a captain call crew support/scheduling a few weeks ago and work out an adjusted show time after we arrived around 2 am. It was adjusted without question, and we all got sufficient (not reduced) rest. I respected the heck out of the guy when I saw that.
 
Fatigue calls are great... if you can afford to hang out in the hotel and NOT get paid for the day. I like how they claim "zero consequence" for calling in when they testified in front of congress. The reality is people quite often DON'T call in when they should because they can't afford too or don't want to lose the money. I see it happen ALL the time and I'm guilty of it myself because my bills still come every month whether I fatigue or not. MAJOR design flaw with the fatigue program.. but.. nobody asks me to testify in front of congress..

Eagle claims they will reimburse you for your loss "IF" it was not your fault AND the review board agrees.. Yeah.. My last reimbursement that was FINALLY approved took over 13 months to get to me and probably over 50 emails/calls and constant harassment to various people in different departments to finally make it happen. This was after standing on the street in the middle of the night for hours on a reduced rest overnight while my hotel was on FIRE, definitely not my fault but it still cost me over $200.00 in lost pay for over a year. My Captain still hasn't been reimbursed and probably never will. I have reviews for other company induced fatigues also now which have mostly been denied even though they were 100% scheduling's fault.. and some others approved that I will probably still never see a dime from just because they intentionally make the process so difficult you eventually just give up or forget about it. It's a joke.

Now they've gone a step further and made the process even more difficult at Eagle a couple months ago by implementing a Fatigue review management program when you call in.. forces you to answer a bunch of incriminating questions that could be used against you at a later date. ALPA has been fighting it but hasn't made any progress.
 
GypsyPilot said:
Had a captain call crew support/scheduling a few weeks ago and work out an adjusted show time after we arrived around 2 am. It was adjusted without question, and we all got sufficient (not reduced) rest. I respected the heck out of the guy when I saw that.
Click to expand...

I agree. I have done my share of 8 hour overnights. I am not a fan either.

Before the Colgan accident calling crew support and changing the show time because you were tired was often more difficult. Since that time I have never had a problem asking for extra time after a day like you mentioned. It is sad that such change must always come after a disaster.
 
Lee D said:
I agree. I have done my share of 8 hour overnights. I am not a fan either.

Before the Colgan accident calling crew support and changing the show time because you were tired was often more difficult. Since that time I have never had a problem asking for extra time after a day like you mentioned. It is sad that such change must always come after a disaster.
Click to expand...
A professor I had said in a class on American public administration that we regulate by number of tombstones in this country. Which, is spot on, not just in aviation, but in almost all other modes of transportation, and even in the food and drug industry.
 
surreal1221 said:
Is not enough...when...

There is a 20 minute ride to the hotel...

You wait 20 minutes for the other crew...that never shows, but the van driver insists they are coming...

What an amazing legal world we get to play in.

Thanks OMB! Those FT/DT changes are going to cost jobs...especially when it keeps sitting on your desk and companies run productive (don't get me wrong - that's fine) four day trips with schedule minimum rest overnights every other evening.

Or, another Company..or the same Company from a few years ago, bends metal. This time perhaps, with a crew that lives in domicile. Can't chase that Commuter scapegoat now can ya?

End Happy Rant.

Good night...time to get 6 hours of sleep, somehow.
Click to expand...


8 hours rest is an FAA number..

If I'm going to get 6.2 that's not 8.. I have no issues telling scheduling about my new show time..
 
Colgan made it possible to get 8 hours at the hotel. I've never gotten any grief for calling and telling crew support that we just got to the hotel, and that the new show time is 8 hours plus 15 min van ride from now.
 
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