Type of Operation

F9DXER

Well-Known Member
What type of operation do you consider this?

Airline A and B are allowed to conduct Domestic/Flag and Supp Ops.

Airline A contracts with Airline B to do domestic flying for them. (ie regional)

Airlines B cannot oeprate the flight for a valid reason.

Thus Airline A is going to operate that flight for them.

So in theory, Airline A is doing flying on behalf of Airline B, which is contracted to do flying for Airline A.


Excluding some FAA deviation that your company is allowed, what type of operation is this?

I consider it to be Supplemental because Airline A is doing flying for another airlines.

Thoughts, with justification?
 
Thoughts: It depends, if carrier A is under contract to do the flying, I'd agree it is a wet lease set up. If carrier B is unable to fly the trip and carrier A says "forget it, we'll fly our own trip after all", it's just a plain old domestic/flag. I would assume it all depends on a firm contract.

Justification: Unable. I've already started counting a few sheep tonight. Sorry.

I'm getting way ahead of myself, but does your question relate the mandatory alternate requirement for a supplemental, which probably bumped payload, at which point someone mgmt-type said "No alternate needed, it's a domestic trip" ?
 
What type of operation do you consider this?

Airline A and B are allowed to conduct Domestic/Flag and Supp Ops.

Airline A contracts with Airline B to do domestic flying for them. (ie regional)

Airlines B cannot oeprate the flight for a valid reason.

Thus Airline A is going to operate that flight for them.

So in theory, Airline A is doing flying on behalf of Airline B, which is contracted to do flying for Airline A.


Excluding some FAA deviation that your company is allowed, what type of operation is this?

I consider it to be Supplemental because Airline A is doing flying for another airlines.

Thoughts, with justification?

Thoughts...

Is airline B (in this case a regional) operating under supplemental? Is airline A paying airline B who in turn pays Airline A to operate the trip or is airline A just going to withhold payment for that specific segment? I think it's a straight flag/domestic for Airline A, it's their payload and their income. I also think (And it's been a while since I've dealt with this and my memory is fuzzy), there is a notification or form or something that has to be filed with the DOT when you do wet lease flying??? I could be wrong on that one though.

Justification: Well, if airline B didn't come to you with contract in hand for an ACMI type operation then they're not chartering Airline A's plane. I think if Airline B came up and asked you to operate Airline C's flight for them, that could be seen as a better case for supplemental operation (That would be hilarious, Expressjet asks Delta to operate a UAL flight for them).

Solution: Ops Spec A030.
 
Well from the dispatch side one would never see the contract or even would know what is in it.

All the information you get is that you have an additional flight on your desk, that is not a normal mainline flight number.

Also would it make any difference if the city pair were listed in C70 as regular?
 
I would consider it a supplemental since it's not a regularly scheduled flight for Airline A.

But perhaps Airline B could wet lease a plane and crew from Airline A to fly under Airline B's certificate, then that might be considered domestic... but I don't know much about that other than cargo companies do it all the time... (and this might be one of the deviations a company can use, so it may not count)

I have seen some city's that we normally don't fly to, but they have the normal flight numbers. We usually fly there for like a week (maybe) and then I don't see them again for a while. Perhaps if it was known far enough in the future it could be considered a scheduled flight?
 
I would consider it a supplemental since it's not a regularly scheduled flight for Airline A.

But perhaps Airline B could wet lease a plane and crew from Airline A to fly under Airline B's certificate, then that might be considered domestic... but I don't know much about that other than cargo companies do it all the time... (and this might be one of the deviations a company can use, so it may not count)

I have seen some city's that we normally don't fly to, but they have the normal flight numbers. We usually fly there for like a week (maybe) and then I don't see them again for a while. Perhaps if it was known far enough in the future it could be considered a scheduled flight?

I contend it can be considered a scheduled op still. From the DOT : "Scheduled Service: Transport service operated persuant to published flight schedules, including extra sections and related nonrevenue flights". I think the extra sections can cover the flying for a regional carrier that. Also, this statement "Scheduled Service: Transport service operated over an air carrier's routes, based on published flight schedules, including extra sections." There's another statement (i lost it) that refers to individually ticketed passengers or individually waybilled freight. Since the pax are individually ticketed, and not paid for as a group, I think that lends credence to op-ing as a scheduled flag/domestic. (In a separate context there's a "public charter" with individual ticketed passengers operated by a supplemental carrier but there's some extra rules that go with that your standard carrier doesn't deal with)

We fly a lot of extra sections as volume demands. So, you can argue that this flight is just an extra section added for volume to the airport. You don't know why you need to operate a bigger plane (or extra flight). We have had incidence where we, as Airline A, had contracted to a carrier (Airline B) to fly a route for us. Airline B was a supplemental carrier, and had a broken airplane. Airline A used a spare to op the leg. Still considered a domestic/flag extra section.

Well from the dispatch side one would never see the contract or even would know what is in it.

All the information you get is that you have an additional flight on your desk, that is not a normal mainline flight number.

Also would it make any difference if the city pair were listed in C70 as regular?

We just went through a large schpiel about how a flight that's diverted to an approved alternate can be dispatched from said alternate (if it's not a regular, provisional, or refueling airport) to a regular airport under domestic/flag rules. I don't remember all the justification used but the FAA bought it.

Question, when your carrier operates charters, say for sports teams, between C70 airports; are they operated as Supplemental? We get briefs from out charter dept for such flights and still (under A030) operate them as a standard flag/domestic. I'm guessing that as a large enough carrier to have a regional operating for you that there's a charter department that sends out info for such things.

OK, that's my opinion, could be wrong. It was a long overnight shift followed by a couple of adult beverages.
 
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