Superstitions (PHX) Plane Crash

A150K said:
I think it depends on the sector, but generally speaking they don't like VFR traffic very much. I've only ever been in that area IFR, but I heard them deny someone VFR services at 3 AM once.
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I've taken a flight of 4 172s through the phx B at noon. No problems. Not even with flight following, just called up out of the blue and they accommodated. My biggest wonder is why was he vfr at night... in an ac690, it's not like it doesn't have the climb performance and it's not like it's that much hassle.
 
But if you've got to bust the airspace to stay alive, bust the airspace.

Better to be alive and suspended than dead.

CFIT happens in everything from Piper Cubs with no electrical system to turbojet-powered full automated jets as well.
 
Doug Taylor said:
But if you've got to bust the airspace to stay alive, bust the airspace.

Better to be alive and suspended than dead.

CFIT happens in everything from Piper Cubs with no electrical system to turbojet-powered full automated jets as well.
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Exactly! Reminds me of the ball player who flew his Cirrus into the building in NY trying to avoid the Bravo.
 
MikeD said:
Again, it's not like the pilot didn't know the mountain was there; he flew right past it on his way in in the daylight. That's whats disconcerting.
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Yes, he knew there were mountains east, more than likely he even knew that specific mountain. My point is that I think it is more likely that he was off course, rather than trying to duck the Bravo on the course he was on as it would give him less than 2 miles clearance to do so. He may of know the location of the mountain, but at the time he obviously didn't know it was in front of him unless it was a suicide.
 
I would almost bet he was on course, but the GPS does not know where there are and are not mountains, it just gives you a direct track.
 
MikeD said:
The pilot was familiar with the PHX area and had just flown in past the same peak he hit earlier in the day.
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Look at this!

The father of three children killed in the Thanksgiving eve plane crash in the Superstition Mountains was riding in the backseat with his kids while his friend, also an experienced pilot, was flying the plane during the fatal accident.
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More of the story here: http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2011/12/fathers-friend-flying-plane-in.html
 
I won't speculate as to what happened, but it does seem at the very least the FAA should reconsider the Bravo ceiling in that area, whether he was or wasn't ducking the Bravo is irrelevant. It looks like they gave consideration to the Estrellas out west with the 5000 ft ceiling block around PIR (just flew over there last night). If nothing else, I hope we can all be reminded to plan and think the crap out of every flight, even if we have flown a route or area hundreds of times (certainly not saying these particular men didn't). Stay safe out there.
 
Der_Meister said:
I would almost bet he was on course, but the GPS does not know where there are and are not mountains, it just gives you a direct track.
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That be such a basic mistake, plot a course east and not check where the mountains, that you know are there, begin? Or purposly trying to duck B and then climb over a mountain that is less than 2 miles out. A plane travelling 120 goes 2 miles a minute, he was probably going faster. Assuming he was at 4500ft, had the full two miles and initiated a climb of 1000 ft per minute right when he passed the Bravo, he would have cleared the ridge, 5100 (MSA 5400 per TAC) with less than 1 mile. This is based on going 120kts. Maybe the turbine world is different but I just don't think this is something I or most experience pilots would attempt. I'm wondering if they meant to head further southeast towards florence junction before turning more east and just got disoriented. I'm sure getting disoriented at night has happened to some of us once or twice, but usually we catch it in time.
 
rockman2343@aol.com said:
That be such a basic mistake, plot a course east and not check where the mountains, that you know are there, begin?
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Basic? Yes, but how many pilots a year forget to put their gear down? or run out of fuel? Both are basic but yet pilots make the error. Though I would agree the Bravo shelf probably also played a part.
 
Look, it's not unthinkable to assume that after getting the right turn clearance on course (2 miles E of FFZ) that he hit Direct-To, Enter, Enter and turned on course. That puts him right on track with the mountain. How many of us, at least VFR, have done that. Got vectored around or given a routing that we hadn't planned initially (he was told to maintain runway heading until cleared otherwise for traffic) and then punched the direct button to get back on track once cleared. It seems, at this time, it was an unfortunate series of events that led to this tragedy. Hopefully more light will be shed on this so we don't have to sit here and speculate.
 
Der_Meister said:
Basic? Yes, but how many pilots a year forget to put their gear down? or run out of fuel? Both are basic but yet pilots make the error. Though I would agree the Bravo shelf probably also played a part.
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The Bravo shelf would be a tertiary factor as best, as there were many ways the pilot could've navigated laterally around. He wasn't in a square corner of any kind, the only limitation being altitude. There were a number of directions he could've gone; but didn't for reasons unknown.
 
MikeD said:
The Bravo shelf would be a tertiary factor as best, as there were many ways the pilot could've navigated laterally around. He wasn't in a square corner of any kind, the only limitation being altitude. There were a number of directions he could've gone; but didn't for reasons unknown.
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quite true. I mostly follow roads in AZ at night, and I teach my students to do so as well for two reasons: one you always have a place to land, and you know you wont hit any thing if your over top of a road.
 
Update: Delta FA Karen Perry, who lost her 3 children in the accident, to also lose her AZ home to foreclosure.

GOLD CANYON, AZ (CBS5) - It's been more than three months since a small plane carrying six people crashed into the Superstition Mountains.

Karen Perry lost all three of her young children on that flight the night before Thanksgiving.

Now Perry is facing another loss - her home. Perry said after an outpouring of support for her, Freddie Mac informed her they are not willing to allow someone to purchase her home and then rent it back to her. Perry said they plan to foreclose on the home and told her she must be out of the home by March 15.

"There's days that I wake up that I feel like someone's poured cement on me... where I feel like I can't even move," said Perry in an interview with CBS 5 in late January.

She doesn't have the heart to put her kids' toys away or even wash their clothes that were piling up when she last saw them.

"When I walked in there and looked at that laundry basket and I realized that my kids were never coming home again, I couldn't do it," she said.

Her home is where the memories of her family surround her.

"I was pregnant with my third child when we moved in here, and my middle child was just learning how to walk," she recalled.

After a divorce less than two years ago led to financial troubles, the four-bedroom house in Gold Canyon was nearing foreclosure.

"I need all the help I can get right now, and most of that is just so that I can get on with a new life," Perry said.

Thousands of letters of sympathy and support have poured in along with charitable donations from various groups, including two from Delta Airlines where Karen is a flight attendant.
"It has meant absolutely everything to me," said a grateful Perry.

One of those groups is a non-profit called the Ladies Day Fund, started by a retired flight attendant in New Orleans.

Also, Tina Vallejo, a local singer and songwriter, wrote a song in memory of Perry's three children titled, Fly My Angel.

You can find it on iTunes, and a portion of the sales will also go to help Perry get back on her feet.
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Story here:

http://www.kpho.com/story/16636555/valley-mom-who-lost-3-kids-in-plane-crash-to-lose-home
 
She doesn't have the heart to put her kids' toys away or even wash their clothes that were piling up when she last saw them.

"When I walked in there and looked at that laundry basket and I realized that my kids were never coming home again, I couldn't do it," she said.
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Very sad situation, but hearing this, it may be good for her to get out of the house so she can start the very painful process of moving on. I can't imagine being in her shoes right now. It has to be the worst thing losing a child, much less all of your children.
 
When a parent loses a child like that, it's pretty common to be unable to 'process' the kid's stuff. Often they'll just close the door to the kid's room and simply never go in there again. They usually need a family member or friend to do it for them, if it's to be done at all. I can't imagine having to go through my kids' rooms if something like that happened to me. Though honestly, if it were me, I'd want to do it fairly soon afterwards, and just get it over with. If it's left to sit, it'll just rip open those emotional wounds all over again when it eventually HAS to be done. :(

Our middle school band director's son was 2 years older than me, and died of complications during an epileptic seizure at age 16. He never recovered from that loss. They had to move from their house, not because of foreclosure or anything but because they simply couldn't stay in that house with the memories of Robbie [the son]. So they moved across town within a year. He had been a happy, energetic, spritely guy who was always fast with a joke... he died of cancer less than 10 years later, a hollow, empty, shell of a person. Very, very sad. When my cousin (3 days older than me) died in 2003 his mom (my aunt) would go and sit in his house for weeks afterwards... wouldn't clean it out, wash anything, etc. It took a while for them to be able to clean out the house & do what needed to be done.

In this particular case, it kind of sounds like there were financial issues already present before the accident even happened. Sadly fairly common in divorce... :( I know it sounds harsh, but I do think she'd probably be better off in the long run getting rid of the big, expensive, memory-filled house. It sucks to have it taken away in a foreclosure situation on the heels of losing your kids like that though.
 
Reading the story, I feel bad for the lady that she lost her kids. But the fact that she is loosing her house now has no bearing on how I still feel about her. Does it suck that she is now loosing her house? Yup. But from the article, this isn't something new thats just popped up. She has been in financial trouble for a long time.
 
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