Ripple effect of AA Chapter 11

P

pilotlight

Well-Known Member
United/CAL has had a fight in their jcba especially with scope clauses. Delta has mentioned that scope and pay have been huge items in their upcoming contract. With AA Chapter 11 American has lost a lot of fighting power in their contract. I fear Eagle or someone else will be flying 76 seat aircraft or sadly even something a little bigger in the future. Then the other legacies will claim they cant compete with american and so our profession continues its downward spiral.
 
1-800-truckmasters.

What about Boeing, who just received a major order for airplanes? Or the leasing companies that lease AMR their jets.

Or the pilots who have to decide between a fair wage, a retirement and work rules; and are soon to retire?

How about the gate agents? Mechanics?

Every employee group has "Given to the Cause" and now are getting hosed anyway.

It's not a nice industry or career if you want pats on the back.

Only the mainlines can determine what the keep and give away.

You have your vote when the TA comes out, or whatever input you have into the union in your position.

Unless you're on the board or the CEO, you have limited impact on the organization.
 
I think we need to abolish bankruptcy. Call me crazy!! I'm nuts!

End all bankruptcy protection. Its a big fancy court proceeding with lawyers and large words that serves one purpose: Shafting the little guy.

But wait! If we end bankruptcy protection, then companies will just fail?! We can't have that can we?? Can we?

I think so. If a company cannot run itself, it should fail period. If this was the pretense that management teams operated under, knowing that their failure to run a company for the long term would result in the loss of their careers then we wouldn't have the level of gross mismanagement that we have in today's business world. The bankruptcy protection creates moral hazard for anyone operating in any management team in any industry because they know that if their decisions aren't good it doesn't really matter anyway as the company can always just have its debts and obligations "restructured" by the courts! There is much more incentive for these folks to do quality work if we didn't have bankruptcy protection, and IMO the taxpayer comes out ahead to boot.
 
Phuz said:
I think we need to abolish bankruptcy. Call me crazy!! I'm nuts!

End all bankruptcy protection. Its a big fancy court proceeding with lawyers and large words that serves one purpose: Shafting the little guy.

But wait! If we end bankruptcy protection, then companies will just fail?! We can't have that can we?? Can we?

I think so. If a company cannot run itself, it should fail period. If this was the pretense that management teams operated under, knowing that their failure to run a company for the long term would result in the loss of their careers then we wouldn't have the level of gross mismanagement that we have in today's business world. The bankruptcy protection creates moral hazard for anyone operating in any management team in any industry because they know that if their decisions aren't good it doesn't really matter anyway as the company can always just have its debts and obligations "restructured" by the courts! There is much more incentive for these folks to do quality work if we didn't have bankruptcy protection, and IMO the taxpayer comes out ahead to boot.
Click to expand...

I think you would find the everyday employee's are the ones who would be hurt the most.

http://www.airlines.org/Economics/DataAnalysis/Pages/USAirlineBankruptciesServiceCessations.aspx?View={1CB1046D-5CDF-4B7E-87A3-85F68601F69A}
 
Phuz said:
I think so. If a company cannot run itself, it should fail period.
Click to expand...

I bet that feels good to say...until it's your company failing. How would you like to be an American guy, in his mid-to-late 40's. Too young to retire, Too old to start over again. If bankruptcy can save your company, and thus your career, are you sure you would want to get rid of it?

Not necessarily disagreeing with you. But, I'm just saying be careful what you wish for.
 
pilotlight said:
United/CAL has had a fight in their jcba especially with scope clauses. Delta has mentioned that scope and pay have been huge items in their upcoming contract. With AA Chapter 11 American has lost a lot of fighting power in their contract. I fear Eagle or someone else will be flying 76 seat aircraft or sadly even something a little bigger in the future. Then the other legacies will claim they cant compete with american and so our profession continues its downward spiral.
Click to expand...

THe "ripple" effect goes way beyond what you describe. Every AMR creditor, supplier, and service provider to AMR will be affected by this, including your boys over at TSA/GoJets. If memory serves, they operate as American Eagle Connection or something like that.
 
Hernandezcfi said:
Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without the bible!
Click to expand...

....and Christianity without the bible is like Chris Hansen without a windowless van...

back on track....I don't think you will feel the ripples till next spring...but still crappy in everyway...Arpey...what sweet guy
 
Phuz said:
I think we need to abolish bankruptcy. Call me crazy!! I'm nuts!

End all bankruptcy protection. Its a big fancy court proceeding with lawyers and large words that serves one purpose: Shafting the little guy.

But wait! If we end bankruptcy protection, then companies will just fail?! We can't have that can we?? Can we?
Click to expand...

Are you advocating bankruptcy abolition for corporations or for individuals?

Because the return to debtors prisons would not be far behind. How many pilots have filed for bankruptcy?
 
killbilly said:
Are you advocating bankruptcy abolition for corporations or for individuals?

Because the return to debtors prisons would not be far behind. How many pilots have filed for bankruptcy?
Click to expand...

The fact that people file for bankruptcy doesn't make it ok. It just means that people spend outside their means. Maybe we do need a much harder punishment for those who do put themselves in that position
 
Inverted25 said:
The fact that people file for bankruptcy doesn't make it ok. It just means that people spend outside their means. Maybe we do need a much harder punishment for those who do put themselves in that position
Click to expand...
Bankruptcy law in the United States is far, far easier on a corporate entity than it is to an individual person.
 
O&M said:
THe "ripple" effect goes way beyond what you describe. Every AMR creditor, supplier, and service provider to AMR will be affected by this, including your boys over at TSA/GoJets. If memory serves, they operate as American Eagle Connection or something like that.
Click to expand...


TSA hasn't flown American connection since 5/09 and Go Jets never has
 
Inverted25 said:
The fact that people file for bankruptcy doesn't make it ok. It just means that people spend outside their means. Maybe we do need a much harder punishment for those who do put themselves in that position
Click to expand...

Not true at all. Spend within your means, then you lose your job. The only other job you can find pays half of what you were getting. Meanwhile, you've fallen behind on your mortgage and car payments. FYI, some of us DID spend within our means, and bankruptcy was still the only option. But, hey. Thanks for generalizing.

It's also true that bankruptcy for corporations is COMPLETELY different than it is for individual. When we filed bankruptcy, we didn't have near as much leniency is AMR is going to have. It's not like we could just say "Hey, here's our new budget. Forgive our past debts, and we'll be cool." That wasn't it at all. That's pretty much gonna be close to what AMR gets, though. They just have to present the court with a plan and debtor financing, and it's off to the races in about 18 months.
 
kellwolf said:
Not true at all. Spend within your means, then you lose your job. The only other job you can find pays half of what you were getting. Meanwhile, you've fallen behind on your mortgage and car payments. FYI, some of us DID spend within our means, and bankruptcy was still the only option. But, hey. Thanks for generalizing.

It's also true that bankruptcy for corporations is COMPLETELY different than it is for individual. When we filed bankruptcy, we didn't have near as much leniency is AMR is going to have. It's not like we could just say "Hey, here's our new budget. Forgive our past debts, and we'll be cool." That wasn't it at all. That's pretty much gonna be close to what AMR gets, though. They just have to present the court with a plan and debtor financing, and it's off to the races in about 18 months.
Click to expand...

It's much worse than that. AMR has said they don't need financing for this bankruptcy, they have all the cash on hand that they need to continue to operate and pay their bills.

This is a bankruptcy of choice, where the only goal is to gut the labor contracts. The CEO has said as much.
 
jtrain609 said:
It's much worse than that. AMR has said they don't need financing for this bankruptcy, they have all the cash on hand that they need to continue to operate and pay their bills.

This is a bankruptcy of choice, where the only goal is to gut the labor contracts. The CEO has said as much.
Click to expand...

So, what you're saying is they filed Ch 11 where an individual would have been told "Suck it up," huh?
 
You can fully live within your means and end up bankrupt next week.

You can change a lightbulb, have the ladder fail and spend a few days in the hospital, sans medical insurance, and you're hosed for the rest of your life.

Just keep your government hands off my medicare and power scooter! :)
 
Since every other Legacy has gone bankrupt I'm not worried about it that much. I'd be more worried about another recession or Jet-A at 25.00/gallon (which it will be someday) than AMRs bankruptcy pulling the whole industry under... not saying its a good thing... but I wouldn't jump on the rats on the sinking Titanic angle either...
 
Oh heck if Jet fuel goes to $25.00/gallon, more than just the airline business is going to be a steaming coil.
 
wait till inflation hits the fan, a gallon of milk might be close to $25/gallon (thats a little extreme but wait till suddenly all our money is worth half what it is now)! RON PAUL 2012!! Audit the FED!!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top