Both pilots violated?

M

mshunter

Well-Known Member
Came across this on another forum. Two pilots (CA/FO) in an airplane. The commit a pilot deviation. Both CA and FO get violated?
 
mshunter said:
Came across this on another forum. Two pilots (CA/FO) in an airplane. The commit a pilot deviation. Both CA and FO get violated?
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Well, that's a little vague. But yes, from what I understand the FAA's recent stance on deviations has been to violate both pilots, stressing the importance of CRM and shared responsibility.

....of course I did just completely pull that answer out of my arse, but it does sound pretty official, doesn't it?
 
2BEER said:
Well, that's a little vague. But yes, from what I understand the FAA's recent stance on deviations has been to violate both pilots, stressing the importance of CRM and shared responsibility.

....of course I did just completely pull that answer out of my arse, but it does sound pretty official, doesn't it?
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Here is what I read.

Might have an issue coming up in the very near future. Today I was departing in the right seat, as a required crew member as per op-spec(135 pax charter). There was a radial that I was trying to get the captain to intercept off the departure end, as per the SID. He flew right through it. There was also a turn we were supposed to make at 4DME/6k feet. He got to 6k feet and started the turn at about 2DME. I was telling him to intercept the radial, and wait for the turn, but he wasn't listening to his "in-experienced FO." We got the number. He told me that the supervisor said he was going to submit the information to whoever they submit it to.


What have others here seen happen to FO's in a situation like this. I have a clean record, and want to keep it that way. I am new at this company, and there are some other practices that I don't agree with. Memorizing checklists and rushing are two ways to get hurt, and thats what I have been told to do so far, so I am thinking of tucking tail and running.
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mshunter said:
Came across this on another forum. Two pilots (CA/FO) in an airplane. The commit a pilot deviation. Both CA and FO get violated?
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Yup.

Hell I did a carpet dance with the FAA a few years ago and it was myself, the captain and the other first officer.
 
Dough: Were you on rest, or actually in front? :D

2BEER said:
Well, that's a little vague. But yes, from what I understand the FAA's recent stance on deviations has been to violate both pilots, stressing the importance of CRM and shared responsibility.

....of course I did just completely pull that answer out of my arse, but it does sound pretty official, doesn't it?
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Yep.

Captain: "WHY DID YOU DO THAT?"
FO: "Why did you LET HIM DO THAT?"

:)
 
I previously worked closely with - not for - the FAA on such matters as an airline rep, and the answer is generally "yes." I never saw a letter (warning/correction) go out that wasn't addressed to two pilots (not to say that it's impossible). In the situation you mentioned, all facts will be gathered, a determination of "sufficient evidence" will be made per ASI guidance, and then the Enforcement Decision Process (EDP) will be consulted.

The EDP is a means to determine what sort of action will be taken against the pilots involved. It is fairly reasonable and takes into account things like the certificate holder's level of responsibility and overall intent. As you probably know, the resulting action can range from administrative (perhaps a counseling over the phone, letter of warning, etc.) to certification action.

From my experience, the most negative outcomes were due to a crew member throwing another crew member under the bus. They usually drove a stake into those guys. Your mileage may vary depending on the FSDO/ASI.

If Houston is out there, he's welcome to correct me if I misconstrued anything.
 
Just wanted to add:

Although ASRS is great for information sharing, ASAP is far, far better for career protection. ASRS will only prevent the suspension/revocation/monetary fines, not violations (should the investigating agency deem appropriate). To be fair, they CAN view your ASRS submission as a constructive attitude. However, unlike an ASAP, you hold the only evidence of your NASA submission.

you filed an ASAP, the pilot deviation will come through your certificate management office, where your voluntary programs ASI will proactively check to see if you filed one before completing the paperwork. The investigation will then be handled within your company's ERC. Depending on your company's MOU, this will generally prevent the company from punitive action.
 
I wonder if there would ever be a situation where a jumpseating pilot would get a violation too. Technically you're a part of the crew.
 
I had a similar situation when I was an F/O with a Captain totally screwing up the departure out of TEB...it's all right there on the paper, buddy! Luckily there was no loss of separation and the controller just chided us rather publically. The reason I bring it up is that the C/A in a lubricated moment confessed that he'd done the same thing before and that both he and the F/O had wound up having a nice long telephonic talk with NY Approach. Nothing came of it, but yes, it sounded to me like everyone with a yoke in front of them was a legit target had it gone farther.
 
Generally I agree with the above posts but there have been a couple instances in the past year where, as an ASAP event review committee member, I've seen only the PIC face potential administrative action despite the event being a normal in-flight situation where both pilots are obviously involved.
 
C150J said:
I previously worked closely with - not for - the FAA on such matters as an airline rep, and the answer is generally "yes." I never saw a letter (warning/correction) go out that wasn't addressed to two pilots (not to say that it's impossible). In the situation you mentioned, all facts will be gathered, a determination of "sufficient evidence" will be made per ASI guidance, and then the Enforcement Decision Process (EDP) will be consulted.

The EDP is a means to determine what sort of action will be taken against the pilots involved. It is fairly reasonable and takes into account things like the certificate holder's level of responsibility and overall intent. As you probably know, the resulting action can range from administrative (perhaps a counseling over the phone, letter of warning, etc.) to certification action.

From my experience, the most negative outcomes were due to a crew member throwing another crew member under the bus. They usually drove a stake into those guys. Your mileage may vary depending on the FSDO/ASI.

If Houston is out there, he's welcome to correct me if I misconstrued anything.
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No, you're right on target.

If I were givng advice to the pilots the first thing I'd tell them is "be honest".
 
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